What's important?

Originally posted by Rajk999
The most important thing about any religious belief must be what is going to happen after this life has come to an end and what the afterlife holds for believers. How this life is lived is going to determine what happens in the hereafter.

So I will first endorse KJs comment and add these two passages containing the words of Christ, on how this life must b ...[text shortened]... an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3:20-22 KJV)[/quote]

A big leap of faith that there is ANY kind of afterlife.

Chances are, the most highly probable result: You be dead, you be turnin into turnups or bacteria or mold....

Believe me, I recognize the psychological deep need for there to be an afterlife but just having the deep need doesn't mean a whit to real life.

Of course it is an area where you could logically ask, 'prove there is NO afterlife' and of course that is impossible at least with our present level of technology.

But what if in some future scientific development, science proves beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no afterlife, would religions relying on such things, would their religion change in any way?

Chances are they would go on just as before, ignoring any such scientific proof.

Just like YEC's ignoring or downright changing scientific evidence of the true age of the Earth.

There is no end to the stupidity of the human race. Evidence matters little when religions are concerned.

Originally posted by sonhouse
A big leap of faith that there is ANY kind of afterlife.

Chances are, the most highly probable result: You be dead, you be turnin into turnups or bacteria or mold....

Believe me, I recognize the psychological deep need for there to be an afterlife but just having the deep need doesn't mean a whit to real life.

Of course it is an area where you co ...[text shortened]... no end to the stupidity of the human race. Evidence matters little when religions are concerned.

When in about 2000 yrs there is hard scientific evidence that there is no afterlife then I will change my belief, otherwise I will stay with the Bible.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
THE TWO GREATEST COMMANDS

Matthew 22:36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

MATTHEW 22:34-46

Je ...[text shortened]... kind of love not to produce holiness. Holiness is a fruit and not a root of loving God.
AWM.com

You were going just fine and in line with clear Bible teachings but then you just had to stick in your own manmade teachings and put in this:

The Old Testament law and the New Testament concept of grace compels men to the same end, that is to love God and their fellowmen. However, the motivations to this end are different. The Old Testament law motivated men to love God and their fellowman through fear of punishment if they failed to comply. The New Testament concept of grace freely gives men a God-kind of love that is unconditional and tells them to love others as they are loved..

I would be interested in seeing some Bible references to support the above in particular :

- motivations are different??? Is there no mention of punishment for sin or evil ? CHristians should not have any fear of that?
- Gods love is unconditional - can you say exactly what that means and provide some supporting references ?

I ask because I can provide a whole load of references to the contrary. I would be very interested in seeing where the Bible supports your doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
When in about 2000 yrs there is hard scientific evidence that there is no afterlife then I will change my belief, otherwise I will stay with the Bible.

My point was even given 100% proof there is no afterlife, the response from the religious world would be to totally ignore such evidence and go on as if nothing happened.

If it helps you to believe there is an afterlife, go for it, just be prepared for that big thud at the end......

Originally posted by Suzianne
I imagine that most here thought you were trying to dig a little deeper than a list of tenets of faith drawn up somewhere else, by someone else. While it is true that the Nicene Creed has been adopted by most Christian churches, I and apparently many others thought you were asking for our own words as to what was really important in our faith.

I hadn't expected anyone to mention it by name but second part of the content. The Nicene Creed starts with a statement on the nature of God, basically it asserts the trinity. Then it talks about how Christ was crucified to redeem our sins. I hadn't expected the former, but had expected someone to mention the latter. It's not just that God exists and we should love him, but that the relationship is mutual and to the extent of making a sacrifice in return. This isn't a criticism of what has been said, just an observation - my expectation of what would be important to people is different from what actually is.

Also, part of the purpose of my second post was to show that I had been reading what people had been saying, which I felt I should.

Originally posted by sonhouse
My point was even given 100% proof there is no afterlife, the response from the religious world would be to totally ignore such evidence and go on as if nothing happened.

If it helps you to believe there is an afterlife, go for it, just be prepared for that big thud at the end......

There's a variation of belief within Christianity on this. But depending on who you speak to they expect to die (completely so to speak) and then be resurrected at the end of time. They don't expect a continuity of consciousness. So the big thud happens anyway.

Incidentally, depending on the cosmological model one can get things called Bolzmann Brains which are fully functioning consciousnesses which appear in a chaotic universe due to random collisions (not very likely but infinity is a long time). In fact they are expected to dominate which leads to one of those statistical problems in physics as one has to explain why we are evolved and not Bolzmann brains. They aren't universally accepted as possible. However if they are then there's no reason why we shouldn't come back as Bolzmann brains.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You were going just fine and in line with clear Bible teachings but then you just had to stick in your own manmade teachings and put in this:

[i]The Old Testament law and the New Testament concept of grace compels men to the same end, that is to love God and their fellowmen. However, the motivations to this end are different. The Old Testament law motivat ...[text shortened]... es to the contrary. I would be very interested in seeing where the Bible supports your doctrine.

I already have in the past, and as usual you ignored the response, so I don't waste my time on you.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I already have in the past, and as usual you ignored the response, so I don't waste my time on you.

How about pointing me to the thread then ?

Originally posted by sonhouse
My point was even given 100% proof there is no afterlife, the response from the religious world would be to totally ignore such evidence and go on as if nothing happened.

If it helps you to believe there is an afterlife, go for it, just be prepared for that big thud at the end......

Only when there is such 100% proof, can you see if religion would ignore such proof. As it stands you are just guessing.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You were going just fine and in line with clear Bible teachings but then you just had to stick in your own manmade teachings and put in this:

[i]The Old Testament law and the New Testament concept of grace compels men to the same end, that is to love God and their fellowmen. However, the motivations to this end are different. The Old Testament law motivat ...[text shortened]... es to the contrary. I would be very interested in seeing where the Bible supports your doctrine.

I would be interested in seeing some Bible references to support the above in particular

Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So if Jesus fulfills the law then what does that mean? How would that change our relationship with God? And if it doesn't change our relationship with God then for what purpose did Jesus come here? Was it all for nothing because nothing changed?

Generally speaking, what does it mean for someone to fulfill a requirement? If a requirement is fulfilled, then what is different from before the requirement was fulfilled? Does that change anything? If fulfilling a requirement doesn't change anything, then why would anyone want or need to fulfill a requirement?

Originally posted by DeepThought
I hadn't expected anyone to mention it by name but second part of the content. The Nicene Creed starts with a statement on the nature of God, basically it asserts the trinity. Then it talks about how Christ was crucified to redeem our sins. I hadn't expected the former, but had expected someone to mention the latter. It's not just that God exists and ...[text shortened]... ond post was to show that I had been reading what people had been saying, which I felt I should.

You probably do not realise that Jesus himself never preached to anyone that they have to believe in or to fully understand his death and resurrection. Even in the longest discourse from Christ on record in the gospels The Sermon on the Mount, nothing was said about believing in Christ or understand His death and resurrection. Its interesting that the disciples did not know or understand what his death was about, and neither did Christ take the trouble to explain it to them. Only afterward did they understand, probably long after he left the earth.

Some churches use such doctrines to separate themselves from the rest of the Christian community. Not sure how well that will work for them on judgment day.

What Christ did say was important was how people lived... virtuous living, good works, acts of unselfish charity, resisting sin and evil etc. These are the important things and these are the things that determine whether or not a person will be part of Gods Kingdom to come.

Let me know if you need references.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I would be interested in seeing some Bible references to support the above in particular

Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So if Jesus fulfills the law then what does that mean? How would that change our relationship with God? And if it doesn't change our relationship with God then for what purpose did Jesus come h ...[text shortened]... equirement doesn't change anything, then why would anyone want or need to fulfill a requirement?[/b]

Did I ask for questions? I asked for references to support certain statements. Do you have any?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did I ask for questions? I asked for references to support certain statements. Do you have any?

Only one... the one where Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. The purpose of my questions following that was to invite anyone to think about what it means to fulfill a requirement.

He did talk about his death and resurrection before he was nailed to the cross. The fact that the understanding of this did not sink in until after it happened is not so hard to understand.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Only when there is such 100% proof, can you see if religion would ignore such proof. As it stands you are just guessing.

I'm going by what already has happened, YEC's totally ignore or distort any evidence the Earth and/or the universe is anything more than the ridiculous number of 6000 years. That is so mind bogglingly stupid as to defy understanding. So fierce is the programming they do ANYTHING to not believe that ridiculousness. I think the same would go for the afterlife. But like Deep Thought says, they don't consider it a continuation of consciousness but a return after the end of time or some such.

Still a tenuous belief.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did I ask for questions? I asked for references to support certain statements. Do you have any?

Would you rather have me toss dozens of snowballs at you rather than just the one I came with? That's no way to win a snowball fight... it seems to me you should encourage all of your opponents to come armed with only one verse. 😀