23 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitWhat is worse, living a long healthy life without love in your heart or living a short life with suffering with love in your heart?
Science can be beneficial, but should not be the focus for curing our ills.
Even if our ills happen to be of the physical variety?
23 Nov 07
Likewise, political intervention can help us, however, it should not be considered the cure for all our ills etc.As I said, political activism can be beneficial but is not at the heart of our ills. For example, what was the cause of slavery? Was it not greed and the blatant disregard for our fellow man to fulfill the lusts for money and power?
Tell that to the civil rights activists, slavery abolitionists, etc. of history.
23 Nov 07
3 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitThis is a much better guess than Tupok, I will have to admit. As a matter of fact, when reading some of Socrates writings one might sware they were reading the Bible at times. Here are a few examples.
Having said that, I will ask again, who is like him?
Socrates. He championed virtue over acquisition of wealth. He was sentenced to death for his beliefs and refused to try to escape, as his followers urged.[/b]
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be"
"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued."
"He is richest who is content with the least"
"The end of life is to be like God, and the soul following God will be like him"
"The unexamined life is not worth living"
"You are providing for your disciples a show of wisdom without the reality,. For acquiring by your means information unaided by instruction, they will appear to possess much knowledge, while, in fact, they for the most part, know nothing at all; and, moreover, be disagreeable people to deal with, as having become wise in their own conceit, instead of truly wise."
(And now for my favorite)
"I was afraid that by observing objects with my eyes, and trying to comperehend them with each of my other senses I might blind my sould altogether."
So we have established that both Chirst and Socrates were of kindred spirit. Now show me the prophesies that pointed to him and the prophesies a man of truth such as Socrates said pointed to him.
Edit: What is interesting is that I have brought up a thread about Socrates on RHP just to show the similariites between his beliefs and that of Christ and when I brought him up many questioned his very existence, or at least, the fact that such a man existed who said such things just like his counterpart Jesus. Perhaps both Socrates and Jesus had to much virtue/truth to be believed as having ever existed? Nonetheless, historically he existed just as Christ and as you pointed out both were murdered. As Socrates once stated, if there ever was a man full of virtue and without sin, surely such a man would be put to death!!
23 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]I need to be more clear. It's not that said chucklehead goes out and says, "Gee, I feel like fulfilling a prophesy today!" It's that there are thousands of people studying prophesies and expecting them to happen. This means they go look at the birth city. They interpret things like "70 weeks" to mean "70 weeks of years" so that the timing will be right. ...[text shortened]... Jews [religion] do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. There are other theories like
23 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]I need to be more clear. It's not that said chucklehead goes out and says, "Gee, I feel like fulfilling a prophesy today!" It's that there are thousands of people studying prophesies and expecting them to happen. This means they go look at the birth city. They interpret things like "70 weeks" to mean "70 weeks of years" so that the timing will be right. ...[text shortened]... Jews [religion] do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. There are other theories like
23 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]I need to be more clear. It's not that said chucklehead goes out and says, "Gee, I feel like fulfilling a prophesy today!" It's that there are thousands of people studying prophesies and expecting them to happen. This means they go look at the birth city. They interpret things like "70 weeks" to mean "70 weeks of years" so that the timing will be right. ...[text shortened]... Jews [religion] do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. There are other theories like
23 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyRe-read what I said. I did not definitively say that Jesus sought those things; I said that speaking in front of crowds can provide those things.
So if one speaks in front of a large audiance they are attempting to gain glory and power for themself? That is quiet a judgement. For exmaple, if a building was on fire and no one knew it but yourself and you screamed to everyone to evacuate you would be doing so to seek glory for yourself?
Back up your assertion by identifying how this power and glory was manifested while he walked the earth.
Let's further examine him in view of the biblical accounts. He didn't just speak to crowds once or twice, but often. He didn't just speak to people, he asked people to quit their day jobs and follow him. He didn't just heal people, he had people follow him for a great distance in search of healing.
23 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitEver hear of Leopold Cohn? He lived back in the 1800's and studied to become a rabbi. One of the ritual that he underwent was saying,
[b]I need to be more clear. It's not that said tyears" so that the timing will be right. Jews [religion] do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. There are other theories like
"I believe with a perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and though he tarry, yet will I wait daily for his coming."
Cohn wondered why he tarried and he was unsetteled by the answers he was able to find. While reading the Talmud he discovered that other rabbis had also wrestled with this question and from both Cohns calculations and the rabbis he read about in Daniel chapter 9 they both concurred that the coming of the Messiah should have come about 400-500 after the prophecy had been given and, in fact, was the time of Christ!! As he pursued the question futher he was told to drop the questioning all together....that is if he valued his future as a rabbi. Cohn was then confronted with pursuing the truth or protecting his own self interests. He chose to pursue the truth and was the founder of the Messianic movement in the US some years later.
Here is a web site if you are interested.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_924-27.htm
23 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitMy point being is that Christ is no different from a person screaming at people to get out of a building that is on fire. In fact, you might say that he was recruiting people to aid in his efforts.
Re-read what I said. I did not definitively say that Jesus sought those things; I said that speaking in front of crowds can provide those things.
Let's further examine him in view of the biblical accounts. He didn't just speak to crowds once or twice, but often. He didn't just speak to people, he asked people to quit their day jobs and follow him. He didn't just heal people, he had people follow him for a great distance in search of healing.
As for him benefiting personally from his public life, how did this materialize?
24 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyYou can't deny, nor did Jesus deny, that focusing on science can cure some of our ills, like certain diseases. Thus, your 'all' is incorrect.
Christ did not use those exact words, however, he did say that one need only to love God and his fellow man and he will obey all of the laws of the prophets without even trying. Love is not only the completion of the law of God it is the source of such laws. It should be our focus and all will be well with us if we do.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyAhh, but we weren't discussing the cause of our ills, we were discussing the cure.
As I said, political activism can be beneficial but is not at the heart of our ills. For example, what was the cause of slavery? Was it not greed and the blatant disregard for our fellow man to fulfill the lusts for money and power?
Note that even with slavery outlawed in most of the west there are still problems with racial discrimination. In other words, we have managed to do so even though there still many who have no love for certain other races.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by whodeyI'm not really interested in a deep historical study of prophecy. The old texts are written somewhat subjectively and it seems there can be several plausible ways to read passages like Daniel 9.
So we have established that both Chirst and Socrates were of kindred spirit. Now show me the prophesies that pointed to him and the prophesies a man of truth such as Socrates said pointed to him.
Edit: What is interesting is that I have brought up a thread about Socrates on RHP just to show the similariites between his beliefs and that of Christ and when ...[text shortened]... f there ever was a man full of virtue and without sin, surely such a man would be put to death!!
Even if I were to accept that Daniel 9 contains an accurate, fulfilled prophecy, it would be less interesting than what the object of the prophecy actually did once he got here.
Also more interesting is the fact that there is still so much discussion about Jesus 2000 years after his time.
Edit: What is interesting is that I have brought up a thread about Socrates on RHP just to show the similariites between his beliefs and that of Christ and when I brought him up many questioned his very existence, or at least, the fact that such a man existed who said such things just like his counterpart Jesus. Perhaps both Socrates and Jesus had to much virtue/truth to be believed as having ever existed? Nonetheless, historically he existed just as Christ and as you pointed out both were murdered. As Socrates once stated, if there ever was a man full of virtue and without sin, surely such a man would be put to death!!
I don't think it is as important to find out whether Jesus or Socrates really existed or not as it is to evaluate the philosophies attributed to them. They were also far from the only ones to be executed by totalitarian governments. Outspoken, controversial people are always a prime target. To me, this is a more likely explanation than the idea that they were executed for being too virtuous or perfect.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe main reason for the execution of Christ was not the government of Rome, rather, it was due to the insistance of the religious leaders of the Jews. The Roman authorities simply went along with them in order to help end turmoil in the region.
Edit: What is interesting is that I have brought up a thread about Socrates on RHP just to show the similariites between his beliefs and that of Christ and when I brought him up many questioned his very existence, or at least, the fact that such a man existed who said such things just like his counterpart Jesus. Perhaps both Socrates and Jesus had to m ...[text shortened]... ore likely explanation than the idea that they were executed for being too virtuous or perfect.