Originally posted by ThinkOfOne========================
Not sure how to best approach this little rant. Why do you insist on responding to each sentence as if it was said in a vacuum? From what I can tell, it keeps you from understanding the overall meaning which keeps you from being able to write a concise and coherent response.
Aside from that, rather than try to untangle this mess, it seems that you are ...[text shortened]... the time to understand the overall meaning, you'll be able to formulate a reasonable response.
Not sure how to best approach this little rant. Why do you insist on responding to each sentence as if it was said in a vacuum? From what I can tell, it keeps you from understanding the overall meaning which keeps you from being able to write a concise and coherent response.
Aside from that, rather than try to untangle this mess, it seems that you are under that misguided belief that the writer of John clearly indicated where the quote of Jesus began and ended. The fact is that the original text does not contain quotation marks (or any other markings) to denote this. The fact is that no one knows for certain exactly where the words of Jesus end and the words of the writer of John begin. However, there are other indications that the words of Jesus end before John 3:16. Perhaps if you reread my post with this in mind and take the time to understand the overall meaning, you'll be able to formulate a reasonable response.
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The overall tenor of the New Testament renders what little point you imagine that you have, quite insignificant.
Simply put, you have a little tempest in teapot there which amounts to nothing major to the overall theme of the Person and work of the Son of God presented in the Bible.
Christ in the Gospel of John - An Outline
http://www.scripturaloutlines.org/christ/a4b.html
[b] THE WORD
John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality.
THE TABERNACLE
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality.
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
John 1:18; 3:16
No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life.
THE LAMB OF GOD
John 1:29, 36
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
And looking at Jesus walking, he said, Behold, the Lamb of God!
THE SON OF GOD
John 1:34
And I have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.
(John 1:49; 9:35-37; 10:36; 20:31)
THE MESSIAH (CHRIST)
John 1:41
He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, We have found the Messiah (which translated means Christ).
(John 4:25, 29; 7:26, 31, 41-42; 20:31)
THE KING OF ISRAEL
John 1:49
Nathanael answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel. (John 12:13)
THE SON OF MAN (THE LADDER JOINING EARTH TO HEAVEN)
John 1:51
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.
THE GOOD WINE
John 2:10
And said to him, Every man sets out the good wine first, and when they have drunk freely, then that which is worse; you have kept the good wine until now.
THE BRASS SERPENT
John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
THE BRIDEGROOM
John 3:29
He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This joy of mine therefore is made full.
THE LIVING WATER
John 4:10
Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. (John 7:37-38)
THE BREAD OF LIFE
John 6:35, 48
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall by no means hunger, and he who believes into Me shall by no means ever thirst.
I am the bread of life.
THE LIVING BREAD
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; And the bread which I will give is My flesh, given for the life of the world.
THE SPIRIT
John 6:63a; 7:39
It is the Spirit who gives life…
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
THE HOLY ONE OF GOD
John 6:69
And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.
THE LORD
John 8:11
And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.
(John 13:13-14)
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
John 8:12; 9:5
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
I AM
John 8:24, 28, 58
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.
THE DOOR
John 10:7, 9
Jesus therefore said to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you that I am the door of the sheep.
I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and go out and shall find pasture.
THE GOOD SHEPHERD
John 10:11, 14
I am the good Shepherd; the good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
I am the good Shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me,
THE RESURRECTION
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live;
THE GRAIN OF WHEAT
John 12:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
THE TEACHER
John 13:13-14
You call Me the Teacher and the Lord, and you say rightly, for I am.
If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. (John 20:16)
THE WAY
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
THE REALITY
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
THE LIFE
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
(John 11:25)
THE FATHER
John 14:9-10
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.
THE SPIRIT OF REALITY (THE COMFORTER)
John 14:16-18, 20
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,
Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
THE TRUE VINE
John 15:1, 5
I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
JESUS THE NAZARENE
John 18:5
They answered Him, Jesus the Nazarene. He said to them, I am. And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
(John 18:7; 19:19)
THE KING OF THE JEWS
John 19:19
And Pilate wrote a notice also and put it on the cross; and it was written, JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
(John 19:3, 21)
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Originally posted by jaywill[/b]What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus.
[b]========================
Not sure how to best approach this little rant. Why do you insist on responding to each sentence as if it was said in a vacuum? From what I can tell, it keeps you from understanding the overall meaning which keeps you from being able to write a concise and coherent response.
Aside from that, rather than try to untangle t ing major to the overall theme of the Person and work of the Son of God presented in the Bible.
Just a few examples:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
John 15:7-11
7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love
John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThere is still much more truth in my "rant" then in this post of your faulty conclusions (that justification by faith is nullified by these sayings).
What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus.
Just a few examples:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, an unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words[/b][/b]
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What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus.
Just a few examples:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
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That is why it is so wonderful that the believers are given eternal life. Having eternal life they can then learn to continue in the Lord's words. "As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:5)
It is then understandable that in Christ's prayer for those who were His, that they would be "PERFECTED ..." underscoring that the ones with eternal life needs to pass through the process of perfecting:
"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (John 17:23)
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They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
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So what?
As indicated above, those within whom He is - "I in them", under go the PERFECTING according to His mighty petition to the Father.
The building of the church as the house of God is a matter of it GROWING :
"In whom [Christ] all the building, being fitted together, is GROWING into a holy temple in the Lord, In whom you [Ephesian Christians] are also being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21,22)
Christ's prayer for the disciples being perfected into one and Paul word of the living temple growing are the same concept.
===========================
Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
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So what ?
Those who receive the gift of eternal life must go on to live by all the words of Christ and build their house upon the rock of His teaching.
Jesus prayed for the leading disciple Peter that he would not fail.
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to have you, to sift [you] as wheat; but I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not; and thou, when once that hast been restored confirm thy brethren." (Luke 22:31,32 Darby)
Right after Christ's prayer, Peter denied the Lord three times - a BIG failure. But as Jesus prayed, Peter did not get knocked out completely. So being a disciple of Jesus is not at all a matter of never having any failures. And on the road to being perfected, as He prayed, the Old Testament Proverb still holds true:
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, Which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Proverbs 4:18)
So the perfecting of the ones with eternal life is indeed like the dawning of the day, growing brighter and brighter.
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John 15:7-11
7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love
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So what ?
Abiding in Christ as the true vine, according to this very chapter, is also a process involving the Father pruning the promising branch:
" ... and evry branch in Me that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit." (15:2b)
Obviously there is the state of fruit and "more fruit" . Which implies abiding and deeper abiding. And in the process the Father is there as the husbandman, to prune the fruitful branch, helping it to become more fruitful.
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John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words
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Once again, that is why it is wonderful that the believer is given "eternal life" that she or he may learn to keep His word.
You keep today, you learn to keep more tomorrow. And if your spiritual experience is normal, you learn to keep His word on a deeper and deeper level.
None of these passages above demonstrate that Justification by faith is a wrong teaching. I know that is what you hoped for.
Even in John 15 you have some branches which do not bear fruit being taken away. It didn't escape my notice:
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, he takes it away ...(v.2)
"If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (v.6)
These warnings are a matter of temporary discipline and not the loss of the gift of eternal life.
Paul corresponds with something similar in First Corinthians:
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13,14)
The audience here are Christains, redeemed unto eternal life.
Therefore all the above passages only reveal that in the PROCESS of being PERFECTED and growing into maturity, there exists a mix of discipline and encouragement. Nothing in these passages teach that the believer who is instantaneously completely mature is the ONLY one who can be eternally saved.
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Once again you seem to have completely misconstrued the point of my post. It's as if what's actually written is of little or no importance to you. Rather like how you approach the words of Jesus come to think of it.
There is still much more truth in my "rant" then in this post of your faulty conclusions (that justification by faith is nullified by these sayings).
[b]========================================
What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus.
Ju y mature is the ONLY one who can be eternally saved.
Maybe if I lay it out for you, it'll help you gain some much needed reading comprehension skills.
Let's take the first sentence of my post:
"What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus."
The above establishes the context of the entire post. The main idea is that Jesus considered His words to be of extreme importance even if they aren't to you.
The passages that follow support the main idea. The text within the passages that support the main idea are in bold to make it easy for the reader to pick them out. The bolded words contain phrases such as "continue in My word", "keep My word", etc. which is strong evidence that Jesus did in fact consider His words to be of extreme importance.
See, the point of the post is really quite simple. Hopefully this little lesson will be of some help to you in the future.
You seem have to have completely misconstrued the point of the post. Perhaps it's because you find dodging the point easier than dealing with the fact that Jesus considered His words to be of extreme importance even if you don't.
If you need additional clarification, feel free to ask.
BTW, you should seriously consider taking a basic reading comprehension class. It could only be of great benefit to you.
Originally posted by wolfgang59Oh I'm sure it was all part of His Plan.
Obviously the prototype that had some flaws.
(The use of prototypes is of course evidence of an Intelligent Designer!)
That's how God passes himself off as perfect, I suppose: "I actually meant to do that. Yep. All part of my Gra-aaaaaaa-n-n-nnnnd Design. Now shut your gobs and worship me."
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==============================
Once again you seem to have completely misconstrued the point of my post. It's as if what's actually written is of little or no importance to you. Rather like how you approach the words of Jesus come to think of it.
Maybe if I lay it out for you, it'll help you gain some much needed reading comprehension skills.
Let's take the first sentence of ing a basic reading comprehension class. It could only be of great benefit to you.[/b]
Once again you seem to have completely misconstrued the point of my post.
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That the words of Jesus were important to Jesus and to Christians is so obvious a fact it was not worth contending. This may have been your pet argument. I didn't think it was so devastatingly impacting as you imagined it to be.
Since your point, which you eventually get around to, doesn't vary that much on this forum, and since I know where you are headed, I spent the time to jump right to the point.
It is not as if your underlying philosophy really varies that much - ie. attack justification by faith and argue for instant sinless perfection being the only NT salvation.
Don't most of your submissions kind of gravitate to that same point ?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneConcerning John 3:16:
What are and what are not the words of Jesus may not be of importance to you, but they it's clear that His words were of extreme importance to Jesus.
Just a few examples:
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, an unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words[/b][/b]
Jesus is being quoted by John starting in verse 10 where it says "Jesus answered and said to him ..." [Nicodemus] .
Verse 11 is Jesus speaking as is verses 12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21.
The break in John's quoting of Jesus after John 3:16 comes in verse 22 - "After these things, Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea ...".
ThinkofOne, I think the one who may need some reading comprehension lessons there is yourself.
Originally posted by SoothfastMethinks you had your sarcasm filter set too high. 🙂
Oh I'm sure it was all part of His Plan.
That's how God passes himself off as perfect, I suppose: "I actually meant to do that. Yep. All part of my Gra-aaaaaaa-n-n-nnnnd Design. Now shut your gobs and worship me."
Originally posted by jaywill============================================
[b]========================
Not sure how to best approach this little rant. Why do you insist on responding to each sentence as if it was said in a vacuum? From what I can tell, it keeps you from understanding the overall meaning which keeps you from being able to write a concise and coherent response.
Aside from that, rather than try to untangle t ing major to the overall theme of the Person and work of the Son of God presented in the Bible.
it seems that you are under that misguided belief that the writer of John clearly indicated where the quote of Jesus began and ended. The fact is that the original text does not contain quotation marks (or any other markings) to denote this. The fact is that no one knows for certain exactly where the words of Jesus end and the words of the writer of John begin.
=========================================== [/b]
That reading comprehension problem is perculiar to you. Most of us can see where the John is recording the sentences out of the mouth of Jesus.
But by your own theory, you have no idea if Jesus actually spoke your favorite line:
"And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever. If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed. "(John 8:35,36)
Its quite perculiar that you seem to attribute this quote to Jesus but not John 3:16. It appears that you intend to make the sentences that are favorable to your interpretation, quotations of Jesus, and those which are non-supportive are not.
Or you have no assurance that this was an actual quote from Jesus - "And you shall know the truth. And the truth shall make you free."
Those lines should be just as suspect.