31 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage1. Moral outrage all the same. As with the Nuremberg trials, Luther's Theses, the film 'Philadelphia' etc.
Moral outrage based on fear of a demonised Other, in league with Satan, feasting on powdered baby flesh, and all the other lies spread to fuel mob hysteria.
Freedom, to me, consists of detachment from desire, or freedom from compulsion, if you will. A murderer needs a victim, needs to kill...A chronic do-gooder needs to do good...These people are not free.
2. Are you free if you desire detachment from desire? If you feel compelled to be free of compulsion?
01 Feb 06
Wow this thread really expanded since last I checked (that's good!). There is a lot I would like to post by way of response, especially to Hammer and Stocken (I'm really glad you guys showed up). But I'm getting absolutely pummelled in the lab. I may not have the time or energy over the next couple of days to reply, but I'll definitely be back. Thanks to everyone for all the stuff to mull over.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageA detacher-from-desire needs to detach himself from desire.
Freedom, to me, consists of detachment from desire, or freedom from compulsion, if you will. A murderer needs a victim, needs to kill...A chronic do-gooder needs to do good...These people are not free.
But wouldn't the attempt to detach yourself from desire be an even stricter prison? To me, freedom is yielding to desire.
Desire is an expression of self, it cannot be a prison unless it becomes an addiction.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by PalynkaThis all sounds very neat, but detachment isn't a need. I don't sit around saying "I must detach, I must detach" like someone straining at stool. Your hypothetical question indicates that you haven't tried it for yourself. However my method is not the only one! Yielding to desire is recommended by spiritual leaders as diverse as Rumi and Osho. Once satiated, you will move on...
A detacher-from-desire needs to detach himself from desire.
But wouldn't the attempt to detach yourself from desire be an even stricter prison? To me, freedom is yielding to desire.
Desire is an expression of self, it cannot be a prison unless it becomes an addiction.
As Tom Waits said, murder is the only way by which some enter life.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWhat is your method?
This all sounds very neat, but detachment isn't a need.
I haven't tried it myself because I'm unconvinced by it. I enjoy my vices and desires too much. If it's a prison, I like the decoration on the walls.
Is freedom of movement the absence of obstacles? Am I completely free to move in the void or am I forever still?
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by PalynkaHard to explain. It's just something I've been doing for a long time...noticing what's going on in my head, so thoughts don't get the better of me. Trying to see clearly. I suppose "meditation" may conjure up an image of someone sitting on his ass for hours doing nothing, but you can meditate no matter what you're doing.
What is your method?
I haven't tried it myself because I'm unconvinced by it. I enjoy my vices and desires too much. If it's a prison, I like the decoration on the walls.
Is freedom of movement the absence of obstacles? Am I completely free to move in the void or am I forever still?
There's a book on Zen & archery which says that the archer is trying to hit himself. A golfer might have a similar experience.
You might be interested in tantric sex. Apart from enhancing your sex life, it helps with detachment.
I don't understand why you are asking about freedom of movement...To survive in the void you need a space suit.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageBut why detach? What's the point? It's that which I have never understood.
Hard to explain. It's just something I've been doing for a long time...noticing what's going on in my head, so thoughts don't get the better of me. Trying to see clearly. I suppose "meditation" may conjure up an image of someone sitting on his ass for hours doing nothing, but you can meditate no matter what you're doing.
There's a book on Zen & arc ...[text shortened]... ou are asking about freedom of movement...To survive in the void you need a space suit.
You claim freedom comes from detachment from desire, I interpret then that you see desire as an obstacle to freedom.
I see desire as essential to freedom. Freedom is being able to fulfill what you desire. If someone desires nothing, then he has no freedom. This was the point with what I say about the void. If there is nothing, there is no movement. If there is no desire, there is no freedom.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by PalynkaTrue, it is a pointless exercise. You always have to keep starting over and never have anything to show.
But why detach? What's the point? It's that which I have never understood.[...]If someone desires nothing, then he has no freedom
Here's a cheap example for you. I'd really like to visit Barcelona again, but it's a bit expensive. Should I sit here pining, saving every penny for my fantasy holiday, or should I take a step back and see Jerusalem in front of my nose? Detachment is my ticket to Jerusalem.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageBudget contraints and preferences! You're starting to think like a neo-classical economist! 😉
True, it is a pointless exercise. You always have to keep starting over and never have anything to show.
Here's a cheap example for you. I'd really like to visit Barcelona again, but it's a bit expensive. Should I sit here pining, saving every penny for my fantasy holiday, or should I take a step back and see Jerusalem in front of my nose? Detachment is my ticket to Jerusalem.
Quick!! Detach!!!