Originally posted by TheSkipperMy guess it has to be real.
Why didn't he just create people who genuinely love him in the first place? Why all the screwing around with free will? Real love/worship is the same whether he teaches it to us through generation after generation of suffering or he just creates us that way. Or are you claiming God is not capable of creating us in any way he chooses?
Kelly
Originally posted by darthmixWow, well said. Rec'd
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulersh ...[text shortened]... ouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.
Originally posted by KellyJayYou and I, of course have been 'round and 'round with this argument a couple of times in various forms. Everytime you respond you limit God's abilities...I never do.
My guess it has to be real.
Kelly
In this particular case you are limiting God's ability to create us with a "real" desire to love/worship him.
Originally posted by coquetteYou must be blind as F.
i'm trying to figure out why god blew up the church. the building must have been evil, do you think? who paid for the repairs? i guess everyone who died on the bridge in minneapolis was targeted by god. did they deserve what they got? is it possible that amazing coincidences that seem to defy the odds actually do occur? why are these types of events so rare if god is out there actually playing hide and seek with us?
God didn't make the bridge fall the bridge. It fell from to much wait and aslo becuase of human error.
Originally posted by RBHILLCould God have held up the bridge 'till the middle of the night when nobody was on it? Or, at least, make sure it didn't fall during rush hour?
You must be blind as F.
God didn't make the bridge fall the bridge. It fell from to much wait and aslo becuase of human error.
Originally posted by TheSkipperFor me, once sin entered the world then suffering and death also entered. Or at least, according to the Bible. Having said that, could God just in a blink of an eye return us to the garden of Eden where sin and suffering are nonexistant? Perhaps he could but why? For me the whole point is that God CHOSE to relinquish part of his power over human will. I think this is one of the reasons he values us so much. It is the one thing he has relinquished control over so it is the one thing he values the most. Think about it, if you had complete control over everything and anything, how would you be challenged? Would'nt you be bored out of your mind? In such a scenerio, all of your creation is merely an extension or a robotic arm of you. It would be akin to playing tic tac toe with yourself.
Could God have held up the bridge 'till the middle of the night when nobody was on it? Or, at least, make sure it didn't fall during rush hour?
Getting back to the bridge example, if God has relinquised control over our will as I believe he has, then we must then invite him to work in our lives via prayer etc, etc. Perhaps the tradgedy could have been avoided via prayer. Otherwise, he will continue to allow us to go on our own way under our own power.
Originally posted by whodeyCan't we just "invite God into our lives" by asking him to just magically pop us back to the garden of Eden? Wouldn't that be a nice benevolent thing for God to do? Much better than letting us languish in this mess of a world. How would that infringe upon our free will, since we're asking for it?
For me, once sin entered the world then suffering and death also entered. Or at least, according to the Bible. Having said that, could God just in a blink of an eye return us to the garden of Eden where sin and suffering are nonexistant? Perhaps he could but why? For me the whole point is that God CHOSE to relinquish part of his power over human will. I ...[text shortened]... via prayer. Otherwise, he will continue to allow us to go on our own way under our own power.
If we would just mess up the garden again, can't we just ask God to correct our faults by the same magic, so our free will is still intact? Don't people pray for God to fix their flaws all the time? Why are we still stuck here then?
Originally posted by TheSkipperThread 74567
You and I, of course have been 'round and 'round with this argument a couple of times in various forms. Everytime you respond you limit God's abilities...I never do.
In this particular case you are limiting God's ability to create us with a "real" desire to love/worship him.
Originally posted by KellyJayYes I would have God change them if it would reduce suffering and save lives. Wouldn't you? If not then the story make no sense as the story implies that God wanted to save lives.(by changing the rules).
The universe is simply playing out by following the laws set in place
to govern it. Wearing down,decay, chemical reactions and so on
are part of the universal picture we find outselves in you would have
God change them?
Kelly
Is God unable to change his own rules? Is he a slave to physics? Why did he create such poorly thought out rules in the first place?
Originally posted by TheSkipperYou design a god to suit you, you set him/her up for failure each time
You and I, of course have been 'round and 'round with this argument a couple of times in various forms. Everytime you respond you limit God's abilities...I never do.
In this particular case you are limiting God's ability to create us with a "real" desire to love/worship him.
you do it while trying to make yourself out to be the good guy. I do
not, but I don't think I limit God as you claim, I do say that God has
given us the will to act, you deny that, I do say that God has kept
our lives fair we each choose. You deny that by making your god either
one or two things, a control freak whose designed flaws couldn't make
us good enough to love him, or god controls all things and he wanted
us to do the evil we do lying about our abilities to choose one way
over another.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadGod's plan has not changed from the beginning it is going to take
Yes I would have God change them if it would reduce suffering and save lives. Wouldn't you? If not then the story make no sense as the story implies that God wanted to save lives.(by changing the rules).
Is God unable to change his own rules? Is he a slave to physics? Why did he create such poorly thought out rules in the first place?
place, evil is just a bump in the road. The time is coming when evil
will be done away with forever. Whatever God wanted us to be, we will
be it is going to happen. As many will be saved as can be while our
wills are intact.
With regard to God changing the rules He is not like man, look at our
govenments they are forever changing the rules, look at our history
we are forever changing the rules! With God what He says He means
He does not play games with the rules that is what we do. If He says
this will happen if we do that, once we do that, whatever He said will
happen, will otherwise He would no different than us, where we say
one thing and do another.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayEssentially you are saying he is callous.
With regard to God changing the rules He is not like man, look at our
govenments they are forever changing the rules, look at our history
we are forever changing the rules! With God what He says He means
He does not play games with the rules that is what we do. If He says
this will happen if we do that, once we do that, whatever He said will
happen, will otherwise He would no different than us, where we say
one thing and do another.
Kelly
So the rules allow God to delay 15 choir members from getting to choir practice but not to stop the pastor from turning on the gas?
Also since you asked me the question about changing the rules, please answer it yourself. Would you have God change the rules if it would reduce suffering and death?
You are ignoring the question of why God would create rules that create such suffering.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSuffering and pain serve a purpose now, they teach us to avoid things
Essentially you are saying he is callous.
So the rules allow God to delay 15 choir members from getting to choir practice but not to stop the pastor from turning on the gas?
Also since you asked me the question about changing the rules, please answer it yourself. Would you have God change the rules if it would reduce suffering and death?
You are ignoring the question of why God would create rules that create such suffering.
that would kill us off or do a great deal of harm to us. Death is an
enemy of ours right now, the very last one that wiill be dealt with in the
judgment, but at the moment death basically put us into a position of
God being able to save our souls, it is still something I despise, and
yes I want it ended I hate it, but it allowed us to not fall into the
same position the devil and his angels are in when they fell.
Kelly
I would very much like to see a theist's response to this post made by darthmix on the third page. I quote it here for your convenience.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulership of Satan. This is his world, at least the authority of this world. So we live our lives under his rulership. This may not seem fair, but when I am tossed a lifesaver, I can either accept it or drown.
Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't.
I don't reject God, or Jesus. Jesus as described in most literature we have appears to have been a good man, certainly relative to the regime under which he lived. Many of the things he said about how we should treat one another were enlightened. Other people have said similar things just as enlightened throughout history, both before and after Jesus' time, but that doesn't detract from their wisdom.
It's just that I don't think he was any less mortal than I am, or that his God is real.
That's all: God just doesn't exist. It's not God's fault that he doesn't exist, and I don't hold it against him; God was never given a choice of whether he'd exist or not. If he existed, I hope he'd be a pretty good God - you know, because he'd define what the word "good" means - and I hope further that, if he was good, I'd be smart enought to realize that and love him for it. But it just isn't the case. And in claiming that, I'm not accepting the devil, or acting out any hostility against God. I'm certainly not agreeing to go to hell for all eternity, or to perish and reject salvation. I'm just describing the universe as best I understand it: the universe that is ruled by a supreme intelligence, and the one in which we live, are incompatible to me. I cannot honestly say otherwise. If I did say otherwise, I'd be lying, to you and to myself.
To make a creation that's ignorant of your existence, and to punish him or reward him based on whether he figures it out, makes absolutely no sense. If God's existence can be proven, then it requires no faith to believe in him, but if God's existence cannot be proven than a person can blamelessly decide he does not exist, or at least fail to come to the conclusion that he does.
So that's my problem with faith-based salvation. If I'm drowning and you're going to throw me a lifeline, would you make that lifeline invisible, or obscure it in the darkness or the ocean? Would you say "maybe I'm here on the dock... this might save you... you'll find out later"? Would your throw out hundreds of different-colored ropes, and only save the people who pick the right one? Of course not. If you really wanted to save me, you'd do everything in your power to make sure I knew the lifeline was there.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
If I had the ability to create a wife of my choice, I could make her beautiful and she would love me. But this love would not be her choice. It would be mine. She would never be tempted by another man....God did not want a wife nor children like this....I, like I assume God does, want a wife who could look at other men, but decides she wants me because of who I am. Do you see that?
And if you created a wife who had free will, and she, of her own free will, chose another man over you... Would you kill her? Would you allow her to pass into nothingness? Or would you wish her well, and allow her to find happiness in the arms of another? Or on her own?
She might choose not to love you. But if you really loved her, then you wouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.
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Originally posted by TheSkipperI did not persue this because it is akin to "shoving the bible down someone's throat", which I refuse to do. But since you press....
I would very much like to see a theist's response to this post made by h, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumedarthmix on the third page. I quote it here for your convenience.
[b]Originally posted by checkbaiter
As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We ac ...[text shortened]... uldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.
The comment made about... "Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't."...
I submit that it is. It is like saying "I don't believe I have cancer growing in me. I don't reject it, it just isn't true."
I did not choose to be born with sin, etc. It does not matter if we choose to accept nor reject what the bible says, God's plan will happen. It is unstoppable. It would behoove an individual to seek and find....
🙂