25 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75References, I need references!!
[. But we do know that the Bible says God is from eternity to eternity but that the first born of all creations, Jesus, did have a beginning.
So you envision God creating the material universe and then implanting the Son into it so that the Son could create using the material building blocks? It is the only alternative because to say that Jesus existed before the material universe was created would be to say that he is eternal and we simply can't have that can we if he is a created being.
25 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhere I got the concept that they believe that Jesus was the archangel Micheal came from a JW I know. Perhaps he was misinformed or perhaps there are various beliefs within the JW's, I simply don't know, but he had been an active member for over 20 years in the church and seemed quite proficient about their theology.
sadly you are not correct but as usual are wholly inaccurate, if you would be so kind could you please tell the forum why Jws have asserted that the Christ may be an archangel and secondly can you tell the forum why the translation of revelation 1:8 should be rendered as the Christ when there is not any other reference in the entire Bible, no not a s ...[text shortened]... in Gods form, [b]gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.[/b]
As for the bit about Jesus being the Alpha and Omega, if he created all things is he not the beginning of all things? If he did not, then why do they preach he created all things? It simply seesm odd to me that God would create another "god" second in power only to himself and let him decide how creation would be created. Another question then is somewhat uncomfortable to ask, if Jesus created mankind, is he not our God?
25 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by duecerthankyou Deucer, your ignorance of what constitutes a god, or a divine being is so apparent that it constitutes wilful negligence. Nice to see you quoting a scripture which has clear reference to revelation chapter one verse eight, but which suddenly changes from Jehovah to Christ, to suit your dogmas no doubt.
Isaiah 44:6: "I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." If there is no other God apart from Jehovah, and Jesus is called a god (John 1 from NWT). For him to be a true God, means he must be the one God.
25 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyso you have no idea of why they believe this thing, well thankyou for your honesty, it is refreshing, at least.
Where I got the concept that they believe that Jesus was the archangel Micheal came from a JW I know. Perhaps he was misinformed or perhaps there are various beliefs within the JW's, I simply don't know, but he had been an active member for over 20 years in the church and seemed quite proficient about their theology.
As for the bit about Jesus being the question then is somewhat uncomfortable to ask, if Jesus created mankind, is he not our God?
that Christ had a beginning and was clearly a created being, i don't know why it is in dispute, ahh yes, the trinitarians don't like it because it completely refutes their dogma, how silly of me to forget.
(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. . .
(Revelation 3:14) 14 “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
that Christ had a beginning and was a created being is without a doubt.
you are not understanding the term 'god', it simply refers to a divine being, a spiritual entity.
(1 Corinthians 8:5-6) . . .For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
please note that the bible states that there are many gods, therefore what does this term mean? it cannot mean that there is more than one Almighty God, for the scripture clearly states that to christians there is one God, the Father, whom we term Jehovah. that the Christ is also a 'god', or as Moffat translates it, a divine being, we have no problem with, for he had a pre human existence, in heaven and all things were created through him. Does this make him almighty God? hardly. it makes him as Galveston has pointed out a coworker as can clearly be seen from the description of Christ as wisdom personified in the book of proverbs, chapter eight.
(Proverbs 8:22-31) . . .“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labour pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labour pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, the JW I talked with pulled up this scripture and began reading where you picked up in the chapter. However, I then looked at the ENTIRE chapter and noticed that what is being described here is the personification of wisdom, not the Messiah.
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(Proverbs 8:22-31) . . .“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labour pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Be ...[text shortened]... lad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.[/b]
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerAre you guys allowed to question JW doctrine? What if a particular doctrine goes against scripture? Be honest can you discuss and have different views about certain points of scripture that the WTS says and still be a JW? Or do they kick you out?
I qouted watchtower literature as that is the only study material you are allowed to use. If they are so off base about Jesus being an angel, how can you trust anything else they say?
I guess this is posed at Galveston.
Manny
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBeing called the first born of all creation hardly means that he was created. Now if you were to take this passage literally, then I suppose you also believe that Christ was actually born from a woman? So where is the goddess that birthed him? I say this is in reference to being born of Mary. Of course, the verse then goes on to say that Jesus went on to create EVERYTHING so the question still begs, is not the Being that created mankind our God?
(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. . .
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerOk..Well try this again. Jesus is called the master worker. Jehovah was the designer of the universe as an architect would be. Jesus was the worker or bulider of the universe. Try to think along those lines and see if it doesn't help....
Isaiah 48:12-13 (New Living Translation)
12 “Listen to me, O family of Jacob,
Israel my chosen one!
I alone am God,
the First and the Last.
13 It was my hand that laid the foundations of the earth,
my right hand that spread out the heavens above.
When I call out the stars,
they all appear in order.”
unless Christ is God, then he did not in fact create anything
It's not that complicated if you didn't get the trinity mixed in the equation.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75scripture references please. I have provided numerous to support the claim that God created the universe, if the bible says that jesus created it, then jesus must be God. It doesn't say anywhere that Christ is the master worker and God the master builder.
Ok..Well try this again. Jesus is called the master worker. Jehovah was the designer of the universe as an architect would be. Jesus was the worker or bulider of the universe. Try to think along those lines and see if it doesn't help....
It's not that complicated if you didn't get the trinity mixed in the equation.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75So what came first, Jesus or the universe?
Ok..Well try this again. Jesus is called the master worker. Jehovah was the designer of the universe as an architect would be. Jesus was the worker or bulider of the universe. Try to think along those lines and see if it doesn't help....
It's not that complicated if you didn't get the trinity mixed in the equation.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerOK..Here you go. Proverbs 8: 22-31. Pay special attention to what Soloman is saying here when he is writing about Jesus the Master Worker or "Craftsman or Worker" and his pre-human existance. Also no hint at all of a Trinity in his understanding of God.
scripture references please. I have provided numerous to support the claim that God created the universe, if the bible says that jesus created it, then jesus must be God. It doesn't say anywhere that Christ is the master worker and God the master builder.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75As I just got done saying, if you read the ENTIRE chapter you will see that what is being talked about is the personification of WISDOM. To then say that what is being talked about is Jesus I think this to be a stretch. In fact, do you have any other verses to corraborate this theology?
Prov 8: 22-31.
26 Aug 09
Originally posted by whodeyPart of it yes, it is speaking of wisdom but the verses I quoted are talking about Jesus. Wisdom could not apply because was wisdom one of his earliest achivements? Or was it brought forth with labor pains? Or just bfore the earth was made? No wisdom is something that God would have as part of his mentality. It couldn't be something that came along later as he has always been and has always been wise.
As I just got done saying, if you read the ENTIRE chapter you will see that what is being talked about is the personification of WISDOM. To then say that what is being talked about is Jesus I think this to be a stretch. In fact, do you have any other verses to corraborate this theology?