Trinity problems...

Originally posted by galveston75
Hummmm, lets see. Jesus is refered to as a "God" but never as "God Almighty." Satan is refered to as the "God of this System."
So it seems "YOU" have a misunderstanding of what that scripture means. Figure it out.

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Hummmm, lets see. Jesus is refered to as a "God" but never as "God Almighty." Satan is refered to as the "God of this System."
So it seems "YOU" have a misunderstanding of what that scripture means. Figure it out.
===================================

We have been through (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and "many so called gods" before.

I can give you doctrinal answers. But I come back to this matter of your love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

Systematically, methodically, your attitude towards Jesus Christ has been molded into a view which is foreign to the love expressed for Jesus Christ by the New Testament.

It is no accident. It is calculated.

Second Corinthians three says that a veil is over the hearts of those stuck in the Old Covenant. But when the heart turns to the Lord Jesus the veil is taken away:

"Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

But whenever [their] heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom ..." (2 Cor. 3:16,17)

The veil over the heart is like a covering, a darkening cover preventing the light to shine in the heart. A veil lies over the hearts of many though they are occupied with the writings of Moses.

But whenever the heart turns to the Lord the veil will be taken away. To turn the heart to the Lord Jesus is to realize He is a living Person you may love and contact. The heart should turn to the Person of the Lord Jesus.

When the heart TURNS to the Lord Jesus the covering veil is taken away and the light of the new covenant revelation can shine in one's heart. Actually the veil is just the turned away heart.

You see galveston, the Watchtower has methodically labored to turn your heart AWAY from the Lord Jesus. They have labored to make certain that your heart is not turned TO the Lord Jesus.

And because your heart is turned away from the Lord Jesus, even though you are occupied with the writings of the Bible, a darkening veil lies on your heart. The Lord is the Spirit.

Watchtower makes sure that your heart remains turned away from the living Person of the Lord Jesus also by teaching you that the Spirit is only an impersonal power of God. But the pure word of God says "Now the Lord is the Spirit" .

This is why I asked you when was the last time you told the Lord Jesus that you loved Him. To tell Him that you love Him you must turn your heart TO Him. But you have been trained NOT to turn your heart to the Lord Jesus.

The veil will remain. But if you tell the Lord Jesus, as you should, that you love Him because He died for you, carried up your sins in His body onto the tree, suffered for you so that you could be saved, the veil would be taken away.

You say in a objective way "We love Jesus". You love Jesus like you love Moses, or Abraham or David or Gabriel or Jonah ... You love Jesus as an objective character in the Scripture like any other objective character in the pages of the Bible.

But when do you tell Jesus that you love Him? When do you turn your heart to the Lord Jesus ?

"We all (Christians) with UNVEILED face beholding and reflecting the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image ..."

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
Hummmm, lets see. Jesus is refered to as a "God" but never as "God Almighty." Satan is refered to as the "God of this System."
So it seems "YOU" have a misunderstanding of what that scripture means. Figure it out.
===================================

We have been through (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and ...[text shortened]... ting the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image ..."[/b]

funny the watchtower puts its emphasis on declaring Gods Kingdom and in helping other learn about God and Jesus, more than can be said for ninety nine point nine percent of Christendom, of which you are a member!

(Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.


read it and then you may be qualified to tell others what Christ was about! when you become not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work!

Originally posted by galveston75
Jesus in the beginning according to the Bible.

First mentioned at Gen 1:26 where God said to him " let us make man in "our" image. ( God would not talk to himself.)

John 1:1-3, Ps 33:6, Col 1:16 brings out Jesus was directed by his Father to create, hence the term "Master Worker" was applied to Jesus. Prov 8:30 which also states that he was besid ...[text shortened]... hn 1:1 & 7: 16,17. Rev 19:13,16.

Any suggestions here of them being the same being?

And still no comments? Must be a hard one....

Originally posted by galveston75
And still no comments? Must be a hard one....

Several times I have corrected you, asked for further proof or given criticism to some of your arguments. I have asked you to supply evidence that the Trinity is pagan and all you have given me is a highly biased apologetic piece which does not answer my question; I have answered several of your interpretations of Scripture, especially Col 1:15 but you haven't replied. So don't get all huffy when no one else responds to you.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Several times I have corrected you, asked for further proof or given criticism to some of your arguments. I have asked you to supply evidence that the Trinity is pagan and all you have given me is a highly biased apologetic piece which does not answer my question; I have answered several of your interpretations of Scripture, especially Col 1:15 but you haven't replied. So don't get all huffy when no one else responds to you.

I have answered you twice. But..for my good friend I will find you more proof since you can't seem to see it in the obvious links I've posted. I'm going out for the rest of the day so it will be tomorrow....

Originally posted by galveston75
I have answered you twice. But..for my good friend I will find you more proof since you can't seem to see it in the obvious links I've posted. I'm going out for the rest of the day so it will be tomorrow....

I don't see any credibility in those links. I posted you a link which showed that triads were in fact uncommon and while triads do predate Christianity, they do not claim to be trinities. You did not respond to that point. You posted a second link in which the argument is basically 'early Christians used Plato; so they must be pagans'. It ignores the obvious fact that Plato himself was not a pagan. It is also just as silly as arguing that since Plantinga has used propositional logic he must be a rationalist. The whole conspiracy theory that Christianity is just recycled paganism has been discredited and so I don't buy your propaganda. I doubt you have ever read St. Justin the Martyr, St. Augustine, St. Gregory of Nyssa or Pope Gregory I whom your sources say were influenced by paganism. Of all of them, St. Augustine wrote the most polemic attacks against pagan ideas.

Originally posted by galveston75
Why do you think we don't love Jesus and all that he did for us. The whole future of the human race depends on what he did by his sacrifice. But saying he is not God, his Father, is not watering down our love and deep respect for him and honoring his posittion that his Father elevated him to after his ressurection..

I did not say that you don't love Jesus I think J-will did. Not to throw J-will under the bus so to speak. However J-will is right in as much as saying we can argue till blue in the face. Jesus can be prayed to and you can have a relationship with the risen Lord. People will laugh & joke but Jesus knows your thoughts before you speak. We just see the scriptures differently.



Manny

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
funny the watchtower puts its emphasis on declaring Gods Kingdom and in helping other learn about God and Jesus, more than can be said for ninety nine point nine percent of Christendom, of which you are a member!

[b](Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.


read it and then ...[text shortened]... l others what Christ was about! when you become not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work![/b]

R.C. I just want to disagree with you on this point 99.9% ? There are devout Christians out there who teach about Christ and His kingdom & His love for the world. There are Christians who go out into the world to preach the Gospel as commanded. This would be an un-fair statement.



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
R.C. I just want to disagree with you on this point 99.9% ? There are devout Christians out there who teach about Christ and His kingdom & His love for the world. There are Christians who go out into the world to preach the Gospel as commanded. This would be an un-fair statement.



Manny

Manny i am not saying that there are not devout Christians who go to church every Sunday, who look after those who are less needy, who give to charity, who look after their families and attend the sick, etc etc

however, the primary work that Christ Jesus did while he was on earth was to help people spiritually, which meant, going from village to village, and teaching persons about Gods Kingdom, or those who are willing to listen. He was known not as a miracle worker, not as a healer, but as teacher.

If there are devout Christians who are out there doing this work, why have they never come to my home? Am I unworthy of the good news? Must i die in my sins destined for their recommended torture in hell? where are they Manny? i therefore ask you to provide evidence of this public ministry, if you cannot, then the statement stands.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I simply analyzed the occurrence of the concept of the Trinitarian Christian God and I said that in my opinion this concept is pure theoplacia, a fusion of polytheism and monotheism, of imagination and wannabe reason, of fiction and reality.

I know. And you did a good job presenting the Trinity in an intellectually honest way. I just do not believ ...[text shortened]... soul; but I am not interested in his argument but rather in his method of argument.[/b]

Then I have to conclude that the Trinitarian Christians worship God the Father and/ or God the Son and/ or God the Holy Spirit and/ or the godhead "Father-Son-Holy Spirit". I have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinctive (activities, not persons and/ or personages!) and yet parts of the single entity “god”. And I have to conclude that the godhead is "Father-Son-Holy Spirit", but then I remain unable to understand why the person Jesus the Son is not also an activity, and therefore I fail to understand why the activity Jesus the Son is not at the same time a unique personage, thus I remain unable to understand why St. Augustine talks solely about activities instead of persons/ activities-relathinships as I offered earlier at my first post at this thread.
On the other hand Jesus the Son does remain a different person than God because God is his Father, and Father created his Son in order to ease the people to see the Father -so Jesus points to the Father but he declared that he is not his Father. How strange.
However you clarified that we are not talking about persons/ personages but about activities according to St. Augustine's theory, and these activities are seemingly identical to his belief regarding the so called soul -a belief that clearly lacks of scientific finds and evidence for “memory”, “understanding” and “will” are all related solely to specific modes of the mind. Therefore I feel free to dismiss this belief as irrational for as long as you are unable to define “soul”, to prove its existence and to show its relation with the mind and the body;


My criticism regarding St. Bonaveture is based on my personal qblh approach. According to your quote St. Bonaveture understands the Trinity as similar to the interpsychic activities of the mind instead of the soul (mind you, Judaism accepts that the Human has many souls instead of solely one, and this religion is the first of the Abrahamic ones), and this is an approach similar to a specific qblh system:
“Father as existence” is a rephrase of the qblh approach “Qeter/ Lux Interna/ Primal Glory/ Hidden Intelligence”.
“Son as knowledge” is a rephrase of the qblh approach “Chohmah/ Enlightened Intelligence” -and the Enlightened Intelligence is considered as the Primal Power due to the fact that we cannot understand the nature of Qeter.
Finally, “Holy Spirit as love” is a rephrase from the qblh approach “Bhinah”/ The Third Intelligence/ The Originator of the Faith (that is rooted within Amen)/ The Fountain of the manifestation of the Faith”.
Well, for the Western meditator Chochmah-Bhinah is the primal archetype of dualism.

Finally, obviously St. Augustine has built his Trinity on a Platonic ground, and Plato built falsely his theory based on the concept of Trikaya. Of course Trikaya is a crystal clear doctrine whilst Trinity remains mambo-jambo for nobody can offer a rational definition about it😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Then I have to conclude that the Trinitarian Christians worship God the Father and/ or God the Son and/ or God the Holy Spirit and/ or the godhead "Father-Son-Holy Spirit". I have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinctive (activities, not persons and/ or personages!) and yet parts of the single entity “god”. And I have to ...[text shortened]... ne whilst Trinity remains mambo-jambo for nobody can offer a rational definition about it😵

then i am correct beetle in stating that it had a pre Christian origin. What about the pagan aspect for it is found in Egypt, in Sumeria, in India and elsewhere.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
then i am correct beetle in stating that it had a pre Christian origin. What about the pagan aspect for it is found in Egypt, in Sumeria, in India and elsewhere.

Methinks Trinity has a pre-Abrahamic origin, however it is not a product of paganism. Triads and Trinity are not identical, just as Trikaya and Triads are not identical -but Trikaya and Trinity are very close;

Judaism is the oldest surviving monotheistic religion since it aroused in the eastern Mediterranean during the second millennium B.C. In fact Abraham is considered to be the first Jew and to have made a covenant with God -dew to the fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam recognize in full Abraham as their first prophet they are also called “Abrahamic religions”. As every religion, the Abrahamic ones too are an invention of the Human and a product of our ancient societies that they were eager to bring up a universal theory of reality by means of a basic synthesis. In many religions this synthesis covers also the idea of Trinity as it is known in the Western theories of reality (religions). However, Islam and some Christian denominations discard the idea of Trinity -and in my opinion they somehow join hands with the followers of Advaita philosophy, for they both admit that the soul and the Divine are one (although the Advaitans claim that when a soul takes birth encased in a physical body, its new physical identity after birth and the process of socialisation overtake and obliterate the memory of its connection with the Divine). According to Advaita, “Brahman (the Absolute) is real and the sole reality; this world is unreal; and the individual soul is non-different from Brahman”. And, according to Islam, there is only one god named Allaj.
The same idea (Trinity) is known with slightly different variations in the Eastern theories of reality (religions) as Trikaya, although both of these inventions are used differently by the different religious personages
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
According to Diog. Laer. ix. 20 (K. 37), “When Empedokles said to Xenophanes that the wise man was not to be found, he answered: “Naturally, for it would take a wise man to recognise a wise man”.
Xenophanes, the founder of the Eleatic School who was born about 580 B.C., according to Diog Laer. iii. 16; Cic. de nat. Deor. i. 27, said amongst else:
-- “ ...[text shortened]... collapses into itself and it cannot be accepted dew to its obvious contradictions and sophisms😵

It seems to me that the Trinity is merely the sum of the essential fundamental distinctions which man perceived through time in his own nature.
Oh, now it's all so clear. Man came up with something beyond his individual ability to comprehend in his attempt to explain life.

Golly, why didn't any of us see it before? Kudos!

It seems to me that the idea of the Trinity is a fusion of polytheism and monotheism, of imagination and wannabe reason, of fiction and reality.
(Are you starting to see the pattern? Here's a clue: "It seems to me..." That might be the problem.)
This is because you--- like most folks--- don't understand the concepts involved. Don't be too hard on yourself though: this is not a house you can find using the paths you know.

The Trinitarian theologian offer that these three persons are not essentially distinguished or different due to the fact that they are omoousia (they are one in essence).
Really? Sounds like a "Trinitarian theologian" who has much to learn about the nature of God. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in anything such a theologian says.

And we can surely imagine three different persons that they are identical in essence...
Hell, we can imagine all manner of ideas. Doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As I stated, this isn't accessible via your usual paths.

Furthermore, these three persons are united because their inner nature is also pure love...
Further evidence of your woeful ignorance regarding the nature and essence of God.

And all of them three persons are perfectly capable to feel to the hilt sympathy and compassion...
Ah, now God feels? Interesting.
As in the past, you argue (authoritatively, mind you) from positions of abject ignorance.

and on the other hand they are omnipotent, ultra smart, ultra powerful and ultra whatever.
Lessee... God, creator of everything, of all reality, the standard by which we measure anything: He is "ultra smart." I'll bet He even knows the end of pi, you think?

...and at the same time a physical existence for himself.
Boy, the hits just keep on coming!

and this is the mechanism used by the theology in order to have the polytheistic element excluded and to prove the unique divine nature of tris-hypostatos Theos.
Where you're getting this crap is beyond me. Do yourself (and anyone within earshot of you) a favor and burn each and every one of the books in your possession with this drivel between their covers. Literally every aspect of the Trinity upon which you have propounded is dead wrong; either in exact opposition or no-relation-whatsoever off-base.

To require the reality of the persons is to require the unreality of the unity, and to require the reality of the unity is to require the unreality of the persons.
It only stands to reason that you could come to such a conclusion, given the faulty information you've been spewing, the end is inevitable. No basis in reality, invalid, not true, but inevitable.

Of course all the above is merely theology (with the exemption of Xenophanes’ aphorisms), and it probably works perfectly for the theologians and their fellow believers.
You know, I must have missed the part that explains how your maze "works perfectly" for a believer. Must be part of that new math I keep hearing about, because there was nothing within your entire post that "works" for anyone, let alone a believer.

... it’s bonkers -it collapses into itself and it cannot be accepted dew to its obvious contradictions...
Of course it's bonkers! Of course it collapses into itself! What did you expect since it's a creation of your own illogical speculation on a topic of which you are clearly uninformed?

and sophisms😵
There's your favorite word again. With all of those books at your disposal, you'd think you would have invested in a thesaurus!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]It seems to me that the Trinity is merely the sum of the essential fundamental distinctions which man perceived through time in his own nature.
Oh, now it's all so clear. Man came up with something beyond his individual ability to comprehend in his attempt to explain life.

Golly, why didn't any of us see it before? Kudos!

It seems to m ...[text shortened]... s at your disposal, you'd think you would have invested in a thesaurus!

Define Trinity;
😵

Originally posted by galveston75
And still no comments? Must be a hard one....

We've been through the Master Worker of Proverbs before too.

God possessed His wisdom from the beginning (see 8:22). It does not say God CREATED His wisdom in the beginning.

And if God had NOT wisdom then how is it He was wise enough to CREATE wisdom ?

You have no case from the book of Proverbs.

"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from eternity, from the beginning, before the earth was." (Prov.8:22,23)

So you are postulating a BEFORE God had wisdom. But as long as God was, God possessed His Wisdom.

As long as God was the Word was with God and was God. (John 1:1)

Explain to us what gave the eternal God the wisdom to create wisdom.