God made man, to what end?
What we know is that God had a plan, and purpose. One of the first things
that occurred was God was walking in the garden and He was looking for
Adam and Even. As they sinned they fell from a place where they could
now be with God, they were afraid.
Genesis 3:
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
The very first thing sin did was take away our ability to fellowship with
God as we had before. Before God would come we would be there, now
that would not be the case.
In the Law while Moses was being told how to build the temple and all
the things that were to be in there, there was to be a curtain. It was to
put a divider between the Holy and the most Holy place. We had a
partition between us and God.
Exodus 26:
The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. 34 Put the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law in the Most Holy Place. 35 Place the table outside the curtain on the north side of the tabernacle and put the lampstand opposite it on the south side.
Sin had made this necessary, where before we would be walking with
God now we could not, our own selves were hindered by sin and the
very thing it did to us and our relationship with God.
When Jesus gave Himself for us one of the most poetic things in all of
scripture occurred in my opinion. The curtain was ripped apart by God,
in my opinion showing our ability to have a relationship with God was
now possible. It was torn apart from top to bottom, in my opinion, at least
I like to think from Heaven to earth.
Matthew 27:51
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
Mark 15:38
The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
We now have access to God ourselves, we don't need another human
high priest Jesus Himself is sitting at the right hand of God for us in he
heaven.
Before Jesus left us He told us it was for our own good that He was
going away so the Holy Spirit would come. Who does not have the
Spirit of God does not belong to God. The way has been made to restore
our walk with God, Jesus sends the Spirit of God to those that obey Him,
which begs the question how can we obey Jesus if we don't know Him?
My issues with Rajk999 doctrine is that there are going to be those
that do not know Jesus yet have good works in their lives so God will
accept them on the righteousness of their works. When we know it is
not be works any of will be saved *scripture can be provided if you do
not believe this* if people do not belong to God then where is their
fellowship with Him, where is the relationship with God, if you do not
have Jesus Spirit living in you, you do not belong to Him.
It is NOT you can come to God and be righteous by human effort, what
makes us righteous is Jesus Christ, we obey Him after that, there is not
two paths to God by works or belief/faith.
1 Corinthians 1:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 1:3
that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
Romans 8:
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
John 14:
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Originally posted by KellyJayWell thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
God made man, to what end?
What we know is that God had a plan, and purpose. One of the first things
that occurred was God was walking in the garden and He was looking for
Adam and Even. As they sinned they fell from a place where they could
now be with God, they were afraid.
Genesis 3:
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God a ...[text shortened]... e spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (Jas 2:17-21)
Let me summarize:
- Faith without works is dead ie useless
- Works implies that faith exists
- Examples of Abraham and many more are cited.
Was James also mistaken?
Paul in Romans Ch 2 also speaks of those who know no law but still do good works.
Obviously you enjoy exclusion to have such a narrow view of Bible doctrine. You like to feel special and that you and your group have a monopoly over Christ? Not sure that is a good thing when the Bible says a whole lot more that you believe.
There is also another issue which you are not addressing :
- Christ KNOWS and ABIDES IN, certain people BECUASE they follow his commandments. It is not the other way around like you keep saying.
- It is not you proclaim your belief in Christ and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
Originally posted by Rajk999"Christ says to get eternal life:
Well thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
[i]Even so faith, if it hath ...[text shortened]... t and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken? "
Nope, Jesus wasn't mistaken, do you know anyone who has done that? If you are going
to rely on your works, do you love everyone here and God with all your heart? Were
there any times in your life you didn't?
Originally posted by Rajk999"James said:
Well thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
[i]Even so faith, if it hath ...[text shortened]... t and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (Jas 2:17-21) "
Not in debate about this, I believe if you actually believe and have faith there will be
works in your life that follow. Difficult to say otherwise, but I will say it is what Jesus did
that saves us, because we fall short on our own.
Originally posted by Rajk999"Let me summarize:
Well thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
[i]Even so faith, if it hath ...[text shortened]... t and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
- Faith without works is dead ie useless
- Works implies that faith exists
- Examples of Abraham and many more are cited.
Was James also mistaken? "
Never said you faith would be without works, what I am saying it isn't works that saves
you it is what Jesus did. No one is saved by works, but the saved will be doing works.
Originally posted by Rajk999"Paul in Romans Ch 2 also speaks of those who know no law but still do good works.
Well thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
[i]Even so faith, if it hath ...[text shortened]... t and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
Obviously you enjoy exclusion to have such a narrow view of Bible doctrine. You like to feel special and that you and your group have a monopoly over Christ? Not sure that is a good thing when the Bible says a whole lot more that you believe.
There is also another issue which you are not addressing :
- Christ KNOWS and ABIDES IN, certain people BECUASE they follow his commandments. It is not the other way around like you keep saying.
- It is not you proclaim your belief in Christ and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it."
I'm ignoring nothing!
If you believe you can be saved by your works, that is on you and those who follow you
to their destruction, since no one is saved by their works. We will do works since we are
given the Spirit of God who leads us, teaches us, tells us which way to go....we will be
doing the will of God as we follow him.
If you think we have a "monopoly over Christ" you clearly don't grasp the real truth which
is Christ in us our hope of glory, we don't have a monopoly on Christ, it is His Kingdom
not ours. I asked you once who was a Christian, do you recall your answer? We are all
lost without Christ, yet you preach some can be accepted by God through human effort
in doing good works.
It is not an either/or with it being works or faith. We are saved by God's grace through
faith, this isn't even by anything we can brag about it isn't about us that too is a gift of
God. I'm not preaching Christianity, who cares about that, it is Jesus Christ that saves us
no other, not our own effort.
1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption
Acts 11:
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Originally posted by Rajk999I answered you point by point and you didn't address the fellowship we have with God in
Well thats a handful. Cannot deal with all those points so I will be brief:
Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken?
James said:
[i]Even so faith, if it hath ...[text shortened]... t and then Christ knows you.
I showed you where the Bible says that and you are ignoring it.
any of your points, there a reason for that?
Originally posted by KellyJaySo Christ was mistaken. its just that you dont want to use the term 'mistaken'.
"Christ says to get eternal life:
... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luk 10:25-27) .. Was He mistaken? "
Nope, Jesus wasn't mistaken, do you know anyone who has done that? If you are going
to rely on your works, do you love everyone here and God with all your heart? Were
there any times in your life you didn't?
Originally posted by KellyJayClearly you are avoiding passages that appear to conflict with your belief. There is a way to marry all of them so that there is no confusion in the Bible, but you prefer not to see it because it will involve softening up your hard stance
"James said:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works ...[text shortened]... otherwise, but I will say it is what Jesus did
that saves us, because we fall short on our own.
Originally posted by KellyJayThis the crux of your problem.
"Paul in Romans Ch 2 also speaks of those who know no law but still do good works.
Obviously you enjoy exclusion to have such a narrow view of Bible doctrine. You like to feel special and that you and your group have a monopoly over Christ? Not sure that is a good thing when the Bible says a whole lot more that you believe.
There is also another iss ...[text shortened]... handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Jesus saves YES ...but ... Who is it that will get eternal life from Jesus Christ ?
On one hand you are talking about those who claim to know Christ as it that is the deciding factor. It is not.
It is those who in the opinion of Christ are good and righteous people. And this is clearly stated all over the Bible.
The fact that the Bible says that all have fallen short, or all are sinners, or nobody is saved by works, or nobody is righteous, does not cancel the hundreds of statements about avoiding sin, about good works and righteousness as the key to being in Gods kingdom.
Originally posted by KellyJayThat is exactly what I addressed and you are the one that seems to ignore it. Fellowship with God comes through Christ abiding in you or knowing you. John deals with that issue very clearly.
I answered you point by point and you didn't address the fellowship we have with God in
any of your points, there a reason for that?
The typical Christian seems to believe that fellowship with God or with Christ is about attending church, singing hymns, praying long prayers, shouting 'im a filthy sinner', etc etc . God is not fooled by these things. These are all outward and superficial, and have nothing to do with the inner person in which Christ is interested. The inner man must change. there is nothing in the Bible that says :
- that the change is instant
- that the change is automatic
- that the change is certain
God certainly does help the change process BUT the person MUST ALSO WANT TO CHANGE. God does not force anyone to change. The proof that this is correct is the undeniable fact that many Christians do go astray with fatal results according to the Bible.
Here is what John says about fellowship, about knowing Christ and abiding in Christ.
]i]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1Jn 1:6-7)[/i]
Walking in Light [righteous living] = Fellowship
Walking in Darkness [sinful living] = No Fellowship/Liar
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1Jn 2:3-5)
Knowing Christ = Keeping his commandments
Dont know Christ /Liar = Not keeping his commandments
1Jn_3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (Joh 15:4-10)
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
2Jn_1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Abiding in Christ = Keeping His commandments
Abiding in Christ = Avoiding Sin
Those who dont keep Christ commandments have nothing
I have to add that the Christian sect to which you belong completely ignore their very powerful utterances of Christ and the Apostles :
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Cor 13:1-3)
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Mat 25:34-36)
These are NOT ISOLATED PASSAGES .. its all over the Bible. Is it clear what is important:
- Charity or Brotherly Love
- Keeping apart from the sins of the world
- Helping those in need because that is the same as helping Jesus Christ himself
The reason that you apparently give for sidelining these critical requirement for entry into Gods Kingdom is that you seem to believe that nobody can live up to them, and how you arrive at that I cannot know. Regardless, Gods word still stands.
Originally posted by Rajk999As an atheist, i meet all those critical requirements.
. Is it clear what is important:
- Charity or Brotherly Love
- Keeping apart from the sins of the world
- Helping those in need because that is the same as helping Jesus Christ himself
The reason that you apparently give for sidelining these critical requirement for entry into Gods Kingdom...
So, i'm in right?
Originally posted by Rajk999It is those who in the opinion of Christ are good and righteous people.
This the crux of your problem.
[b]Jesus saves YES ...but ... Who is it that will get eternal life from Jesus Christ ?
On one hand you are talking about those who claim to know Christ as it that is the deciding factor. It is not.
It is those who in the opinion of Christ are good and righteous people. And this is clearly stated all over the Bi ...[text shortened]... ents about avoiding sin, about good works and righteousness as the key to being in Gods kingdom.[/b]
What Christ actually said was it is those who do the will of his Father. That is the deciding factor.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeSo, i'm in right?
As an atheist, i meet all those critical requirements.
So, i'm in right?
In whose eyes? Anyone can say (and believe) they are right in their own eyes. But as an atheist, you can say you meet all of those critical requirements without worrying over whether God agrees with you or not.
I can't do that because I'm not an atheist.