I would like to bring up one more idea from the Baha'i letter. Here is the section, since some of you did not read the entire letter.
"Locked into preoccupation with agendas that disperse and vitiate human energies, religious institutions have too often been the chief agents in discouraging exploration of reality and the exercise of those intellectual faculties that distinguish humankind....
If religious leadership is to rise to the challenge … [it] must begin by acknowledging that religion and science are the two indispensable knowledge systems through which the potentialities of consciousness develop. Far from being in conflict with one another, these fundamental modes of the mind’s exploration of reality are mutually dependent and have been most productive in those rare but happy periods of history when their complementary nature has been recognized and they have been able to work together. The insights and skills generated by scientific advance will have always to look to the guidance of spiritual and moral commitment to ensure their appropriate application; religious convictions, no matter how cherished they may be, must submit, willingly and gratefully, to impartial testing by scientific methods."
Originally posted by VarqaSo I must submit my belief in the resurrection to impartial testing by scientific methods? Good luck with that one...
I would like to bring up one more idea from the Baha'i letter. Here is the section, since some of you did not read the entire letter.
"Locked into preoccupation with agendas that disperse and vitiate human energies, religious institutions have too often been the chief agents in [b]discouraging exploration of reality and the exercise of those intellectual fa ...[text shortened]... y be, must submit, willingly and gratefully, to impartial testing by scientific methods."[/b]
Originally posted by Rajk999First, the distinction must be made: what exactly grants a person admittance into heaven? Is it according to the law, or according to grace?
So its possible for someone to have faith BUT not obey the law and get salvation ?
If it is according to the law, then I must earn my way into heaven by perfect obedience in every respect to God's law. To fail to do so entails damnation. However, what becomes abundantly clear is that human beings are naturally imperfect and therefore cannot obey God's law perfectly, as required.
Such is the fallacy of works-based salvation: it is fundamentally impossible to earn. Works-based religion is, therefore, bondage, because those under its grip are without exception all condemned by God's law.
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On the other hand, if it is according to grace, then the salvation which is impossible for me to acquire on my own is nevertheless given to me despite myself, through faith in Jesus Christ. It is he who lived a perfect life and reconciled me to God by dying a sinner's death on the cross in my place.
Grace is undeserved kindness.
"Do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set" (John 5:45), "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).
Those who put their hope in being justified by the law, as Christ points out above, will be condemned by the law of Moses.
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So its possible for someone to have faith BUT not obey the law and get salvation ?
Yes, because the spirit may be willing, but the flesh is weak.
Through faith one receives the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and with the help of the Spirit one progressively overcomes the power of sin in the flesh. Of course, this doesn't happen overnight (as Romans 7 attests).
God's standard is holiness, and we as believers are called to be holy, no doubt. But the difference between works-based and grace-based salvation is, those living according to the law strive to be holy out of fear of damnation, while those living under grace strive to be holy because the Holy Spirit within them imparts that desire.
"Know them by their fruits..."
"Children of God" progressively "put to death" the deeds of the flesh; that is, they seek to live holy lives, no matter how often they fail, because the Spirit of God lives in them. They simply cannot continue in sin unabated.
"Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God" (1 John 3:7-10).
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou think that Christ misled people when he said this then (see below)? Seems like pretty strong, crystal clear language to me, and there are several other places where He made similar statements. He says He is going to judge by works. Claiming that you have Faith and you believe just does not seem to do the job. And I dont think He expect 'perfection' like you suggest.
First, the distinction must be made: what exactly grants a person admittance into heaven? Is it according to the law, or according to grace?
If it is according to the law, then I must earn my way into heaven by perfect obedience in every respect to God's law. To fail to do so entails damnation. However, what becomes abundantly clear is that sly and does not love other believers does not belong to God" (1 John 3:7-10).
My impression of what Christ wants is for you to believe and have faith yes, but He wants you to also DO SOMETHING TO DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM. Talking about your faith, singing, dancing, clapping your hands, going to Church, does not seem to be sufficient if you habitually drive past the poor, the hungry, the fatherless, the widowed and the sick etc. and pay them no mind. How can one expect to be rewarded for just talking and not doing anything. Seems to go against the grain of everything Christ said.
Matt 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Originally posted by epiphinehasMany religious beliefs should be examined more logically. But remember that our science is quite primitive. We THINK we know it all, but we have a long way to go.
So I must submit my belief in the resurrection to impartial testing by scientific methods? Good luck with that one...
Originally posted by Rajk999You think that Christ misled people when he said this then?
You think that Christ misled people when he said this then (see below)? Seems like pretty strong, crystal clear language to me, and there are several other places where He made similar statements. He says He is going to judge by works. Claiming that you have Faith and you believe just does not seem to do the job. And I dont think He expect 'perfection' like ...[text shortened]...
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
No, of course not, Christ does not mislead people.
But you must understand, "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). So this is not a matter of earning one's salvation.
"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3). Only believers who have received God's Spirit by the hearing of faith are able to bear the fruit of the Spirit: "the fruit of the Spirit is love" (Galatians 5:22). And Matthew 25:31-46, which you quoted, deals specifically with the fruit of the Spirit. The 'righteous' Christ is talking about here are believers in Him.
"Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). Certainly! Just as Paul points out in Romans 8: "You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you" (Rom. 8:9), "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God" (Rom. 8:14).
Of course, it would be equally wrong to go in the opposite direction and claim that everyone who does good will gain 'life eternal', whether they believe in Jesus Christ or not. That would violate God's word in a similar way.
Originally posted by VarqaThank God, faith doesn't have to wait for science. Faith itself proves that Jesus Christ is Truth. 😀
Many religious beliefs should be examined more logically. But remember that our science is quite primitive. We THINK we know it all, but we have a long way to go.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1).
Originally posted by epiphinehasFunny how you are quoting the right verses but coming to conclusions that are contrary to the teachings of Christ.
[b]You think that Christ misled people when he said this then?
No, of course not, Christ does not mislead people.
But you must understand, "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). So this is not a matter of earning one's salvation.
"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by ...[text shortened]... ieve in Jesus Christ or not. That would violate God's word in a similar way.[/b]
Christ said its - Belief, Faith, Baptism and WORKS, WORKS and more WORKS.
What I think people like you get confused with is that Paul preached that salvation is a free gift from God which we do not deserve because we are sinners. Left to our own devices we cannot attain salvation becuase the wages of sin is death. Christ then came and died on our behalf. And that gave all mankind a chance at salvation.
So clearly there is an element of GRACE in salvation. But the mistake many make is to think that saying with your MOUTH 'I believe' is going to give them salvation. Christ said that was not good enough and stressed over and over that WORKS would determine who got salvation. I dont know how you can miss that.
Originally posted by Rajk999People like me? You don't even know me. Where do you get off assuming that my faith is merely something that I say? That is awfully presumptuous, don't you think? I've made no such judgments of you, sir.
Funny how you are quoting the right verses but coming to conclusions that are contrary to the teachings of Christ.
Christ said its - Belief, Faith, Baptism and WORKS, WORKS and more WORKS.
What I think people like you get confused with is that Paul preached that salvation is a free gift from God which we do not deserve because we are sinners. Left to over and over that WORKS would determine who got salvation. I dont know how you can miss that.
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"And that gave all mankind a chance at salvation."
A chance? In other words, there is something we must do to be accepted by God, right?
"No one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago
"We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin.
"People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
"Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law" (Rom. 3:20-28).
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"So clearly there is an element of GRACE in salvation."
An element of grace? No, it is all the result of grace, even our works.
Originally posted by epiphinehas'People' is a collective expression. If I wanted to say you I would have said you. So I know its a group of people of which you are one that hold those beliefs.
People like me? You don't even know me. Where do you get off assuming that my faith is merely something that I say? That is awfully presumptuous, don't you think? I've made no such judgments of you, sir.
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[b]"And that gave all mankind a chance at salvation."
A chance? In other words, there is something we must do t ...[text shortened]... element of grace? No, it is all the result of grace, even our works.[/b]
Good luck to you.
Originally posted by Rajk999It is you who need luck, sir, not me, you are the one intent on earning your way into heaven. I don't need luck; I have faith in Jesus. Thanks anyway...
'People' is a collective expression. If I wanted to say you I would have said you. So I know its a group of people of which you are one that hold those beliefs.
Good luck to you.
We are either saved by faith alone, or we are not. There are no other options (claiming that we are saved by "faith and works" is the same as claiming that we are saved by works). The bible without a doubt teaches that we are saved by faith alone, excluding works in any form as a means of salvation:
"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
"Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith" (Philippians 3:9).
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The question is, whether or not one's faith is genuine or not. Genuine faith, being alive, produces good works. Inauthentic faith, being dead, does not produce good works. Pure and simple. Therefore, James declares that "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). A mere verbal confession of faith that is not heart-felt is not genuine and will not produce good works; it is dead. "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). No, that kind of faith cannot save a person; it must be genuine. A genuine faith naturally gives rise to good works, while the faith which does not naturally give rise to works "is useless" (James 2:20), being false.
So there is a distinction between real faith and false faith, as James attests; mirroring Christ's admonition, "You will recognize them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:16). James is making this distinction only, not contradicting Paul's words, "justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom. 4:5). Far from it! James underscores the distinction which genuine faith has, which is its good works; he is not saying that we are saved by faith and works, a theology which makes Christ's sacrifice of "no effect" (Gal. 5:4), "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 2:21).
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"For by a single offering he (Christ) has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
Originally posted by epiphinehasIt is entirely possible to have faith and belief and NOT DO GOOD WORKS.
We are either saved by faith alone, or we are not. There are no other options (claiming that we are saved by "faith and works" is the same as claiming that we are saved by works). The bible without a doubt teaches that we are saved by faith alone, excluding works in any form as a means of salvation:
"For we hold that one is justified b ...[text shortened]... ossession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
I think Christ (unlike yourself) knew that there are many that will SAY they believe and SAY they have faith but they do not practice it.
As far as Christ is concerned HE WANTS PEOPLE WITH GOOD WORKS IN THE KINGDOM.
He said that in crystal clear language over and over and over.
You or Paul or Peter or Whoever cannot refute that.
Christ is the judge and Christ said what He is looking for.
All your fancy analysis is worthless if you do not accept that Christ wants WORKS.
Originally posted by Rajk999How many works does he desire for you to be "saved"?
It is entirely possible to have faith and belief and NOT DO GOOD WORKS.
I think Christ (unlike yourself) knew that there are many that will SAY they believe and SAY they have faith but they do not practice it.
As far as Christ is concerned HE WANTS PEOPLE WITH GOOD WORKS IN THE KINGDOM.
He said that in crystal clear language over and over and over ...[text shortened]... oking for.
All your fancy analysis is worthless if you do not accept that Christ wants WORKS.