Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't fully understand b. Is there still some way to positively know that God exists? For example I am sure that by taking the right drugs I could achieve:
"You would feel loved by him and be able to love back. You would experience the joy of communing with him."
without actually believing in his existence.

If you experience all the things you ment ...[text shortened]... hing to do with reality? Do you believe that the benefits of b. exclude the possibility of a?

Please do tell how you can be sure that God doesn't exist?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Please do tell how you can be sure that God doesn't exist?

Presumably all the atheists on this site could do that so don't act surprised.
I have done it before with a whole thread about it though I got bored half way through.
For the purposes of this thread however it was a hypothetical statement and not a claim.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Presumably all the atheists on this site could do that so don't act surprised.
I have done it before with a whole thread about it though I got bored half way through.
For the purposes of this thread however it was a hypothetical statement and not a claim.

Not all the atheists on this site claim to be strong atheists.

And you cannot know for sure that God does not exist because you do not possess absolute knowledge.

Originally posted by dj2becker
And you cannot know for sure that God does not exist because you do not possess absolute knowledge.

Actually I can, and I don't require absolute knowledge to do so. But since you either cant understand basic English or simply refuse to do so, I will not bother explaining the more advanced concepts.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually I can, and I don't require absolute knowledge to do so. But since you either cant understand basic English or simply refuse to do so, I will not bother explaining the more advanced concepts.

If you say that there is no gold in China, you need to have information that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring, or in any mouth (gold filling) in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then your statement is false and you have no basis for it.

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you say that there is no gold in China, you need to have information that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring, or in any mouth (gold filling) in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then your statement is false and you have no basis for it.

On the other hand, continued absence of evidence for an orange unicorn living in my refrigerator whenever I look can, I think, be reasonably taken as evidence of absence. I can reasonably say there is no orange unicorn living in my refrigerator. And to the question, “Are you sure?” I can reasonably answer, “Yes.” Even though I have no absolute proof against the existence of unicorns, or what goes on in my refrigerator when I’m not looking...

Originally posted by vistesd
On the other hand, continued absence of evidence for an orange unicorn living in my refrigerator whenever I look can, I think, be reasonably taken as evidence of absence. I can reasonably say there is no orange unicorn living in my refrigerator. And to the question, “Are you sure?” I can reasonably answer, “Yes.” Even though I have no absolute proof against the existence of unicorns, or what goes on in my refrigerator when I’m not looking...

Having absolute knowledge about your refrigerator (with the help of spy cameras), and claiming that orange unicorns do not exist in your refrigerator is one thing. But claiming to have absolute knowledge about the entire universe, and claiming that God does not exist, is totally different.

I have yet to meet an atheist who is one because he cannot locate God in his refrigerator! 😀

Originally posted by dj2becker
Having absolute knowledge about your refrigerator (with the help of spy cameras), and claiming that orange unicorns do not exist in your refrigerator is one thing. But claiming to have absolute knowledge about the entire universe, and claiming that God does not exist, is totally different.

I have yet to meet an atheist who is one because he cannot locate God in his refrigerator! 😀

Spy cameras in all the refrigerators, I say! 😉

Originally posted by vistesd
Spy cameras in all the refrigerators, I say! 😉

That might also help to cut down those sneaky mid-night snacks.

Originally posted by Mungo
knightmeister- as an atheist i would choose 'a' as an answer to your question

In which case you would miss out on a great deal.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]My main objection (which I see now is off-topic somewhat) is that you were just supposing that this "personal experience" you refer to can produce knowledge (or less stringently, warranted belief)...

The standard caveats: non-dualism, etc., etc.

Now, I think KM might intend to distinguish between episteme and gnosis. That was the ...[text shortened]... nduction I might draw from such experiences, I maintain nondualism, for example, as axiomatic.[/b]

Now, I think KM might intend to distinguish between episteme and gnosis. That was the distinction that I assume in my answer regarding my wife. That is, I think that when I say I know my wife, I mean something more than just having a justified true belief in certain propositions about her.VISTED

CORRECT

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't fully understand b. Is there still some way to positively know that God exists? For example I am sure that by taking the right drugs I could achieve:
"You would feel loved by him and be able to love back. You would experience the joy of communing with him."
without actually believing in his existence.

If you experience all the things you ment ...[text shortened]... hing to do with reality? Do you believe that the benefits of b. exclude the possibility of a?

For example I am sure that by taking the right drugs I could achieve:
"You would feel loved by him and be able to love back. You would experience the joy of communing with him."
without actually believing in his existence.WHITEHEAD

How are you sure? And if you could what would it prove? That drugs can open the way to spiritual experiences? I guarantee that if you had such an experience your beliefs would be questioned.