Through a glass darkly

Did you expect that in the New Testament the scribes and Pharisees and chief priests and Saducees and Herodians and lawyers and disciples who withdrew from following Jesus would only have PLEASING recommendations as to His work ?

NO, I am not comparing Witness Lee to Jesus Christ.
I am comparing the reaction of some people to God moving in the earth.

"Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this, said, This word is hard; who can hear it" (John 6:60)

From that time many of His disciples went back to what they left behind and no longer walked with Him.

Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go. You have the words of eternal life." (John 6:66-68)

But Peter, doesn't it BOTHER you what those who left following Jesus now say about Him? Why are you not joining them to go away also ?

@sonship said
Did you expect that in the New Testament the scribes and Pharisees and chief priests and Saducees and Herodians and lawyers and disciples who withdrew from following Jesus would only have PLEASING recommendations as to His work ?

NO, I am not comparing Witness Lee to Jesus Christ.

I think you are.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Have it either way you'd like.
Either way is fine with me.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

How about explaining why it doesn't bother you when an ex-member of your movement says, ''All Christians not in Lee's group were destined, under his teachings, to suffer this fate.'

I was looking over some old threads of mine back between pages 30 - 50. I noticed I started two:

Don't Be Too Hard On Yourself

Don't Be Too Hard On Yourself II

Those threads were to encourage lonely struggling Christians who have not enjoyed the corporate local church life as a spiritual body.

Rather than condemn them I sought to encourage them not to feel condemned because some things are hard to get over by yourself. The empowering grace flows strongest often in the body life of the corporate church life.

This blows to pieces Ghost of a Duke's accusation that following Witness Lee's ministry has led me to discard and condemn Christians not meeting as I do. You cannot trust an Atheist to be a sincere apologist for the Christian faith.

@whodey said
Their ideology is a theological train wreck. JW's acknowledge that Jesus created us, but divorce the notion that he is our God?

Jesus was the focus of his disciples of old and of today. In fact, he is openly worshiped, something angels in the Bible forbade others from doing because it is not proper. To be anything other than God in the flesh is absurd and idolatry.

You seem to forget that he was also a man, and that this is what gives us our hope; that it is possible for us to follow his example. Some end up believing that this is not necessary, and it is these that err from the faith.

@whodey said
So for the record, me not wanting to give money to the state in the hopes of some of that money trickling down to those in need equates me as not caring for the poor?

Tell me, how much money and personal time have I personally given to the poor Suzy? You say you don't know? The hell you say!

Giving to the poor in the name of God is a blessing to both the giver and thos ...[text shortened]... al time and money to the poor are not Left wingers like yourself.

Left wing ideology is your god.

Your long answer indicates to me that you had your answer prepared already, waiting for me to respond.

Your slavish devotion to your politics has made you into a hypocrite. Your diatribe is full of lies and vain twistings. I've actually prayed for you, that God might open your eyes, but this has been so ineffective that I wonder if, like the rest of your party, you are too far from the Way to recover.

@sonship said

This blows to pieces Ghost of a Duke's accusation that following Witness Lee's ministry has led me to discard and condemn Christians not meeting as I do. You cannot trust an Atheist to be a sincere apologist for the Christian faith.

And apparently you also can't trust people who have left your movement and regale tales of cultish practice.

@suzianne said
Your long answer indicates to me that you had your answer prepared already, waiting for me to respond.

Your slavish devotion to your politics has made you into a hypocrite. Your diatribe is full of lies and vain twistings. I've actually prayed for you, that God might open your eyes, but this has been so ineffective that I wonder if, like the rest of your party, you are too far from the Way to recover.

So no retort, as I suspected.

Just sit back and call me names then Suzy. No worries about ever begin wrong about anything. Just keep praying for all the losers who you don't agree with then.

But this is typical of the Left. They have an air of righteous superiority and refuse to engage in debate whether it be screaming people down or censoring them on the internet like they do on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, etc.

@suzianne said
You seem to forget that he was also a man, and that this is what gives us our hope; that it is possible for us to follow his example. Some end up believing that this is not necessary, and it is these that err from the faith.

Actually it is because I know He died and rose from the dead do I have hope, and that He sends the Holy Spirit to us that I am encouraged by my walk with Him.

@suzianne said
Your long answer indicates to me that you had your answer prepared already, waiting for me to respond.

Your slavish devotion to your politics has made you into a hypocrite. Your diatribe is full of lies and vain twistings. I've actually prayed for you, that God might open your eyes, but this has been so ineffective that I wonder if, like the rest of your party, you are too far from the Way to recover.

“...like the rest of your party...” you think politics plays any part at all in salvation?

@kellyjay said
“...like the rest of your party...” you think politics plays any part at all in salvation?

Apparently Suzy knows better than the vast majority of Christian teaching regarding such things as abortion

Maybe she can pray hard enough for the vast satanic right wing attack to end on the church so we can keep terminating the lives of these dastardly carbon emitters who are soaking up our precious natural resources.

@kellyjay said
Actually it is because I know He died and rose from the dead do I have hope, and that He sends the Holy Spirit to us that I am encouraged by my walk with Him.

This is true, but he came to earth for a reason. One was to become our Savior, and all of the supernatural "stuff" that entails. The other reason is so that he understands what it is to be human, and we can understand that he prevailed anyway. So can we.

Too many people say, "Well, yeah, Jesus was without sin, but he was the Son of God, after all." Not enough people say, "Jesus prevailed over sin, and now that I follow him, so can I."

@kellyjay said
“...like the rest of your party...” you think politics plays any part at all in salvation?

No, of course not.

It's just a signpost on the road. You can either go the way of helping all people in need, or the way of self-serving greed, helping no one but yourself. One was the way of Jesus, the other was not.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." - Matthew 6:24 KJV

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

"But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." - 1 Timothy 6:3-10 KJV

@whodey said
Apparently Suzy knows better than the vast majority of Christian teaching regarding such things as abortion

Maybe she can pray hard enough for the vast satanic right wing attack to end on the church so we can keep terminating the lives of these dastardly carbon emitters who are soaking up our precious natural resources.

That is not serving God, that is serving Mammon.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

And apparently you also can't trust people who have left your movement and regale tales of cultish practice.

No, that is not it at all.

When there are offenses in the church life we should firstly go to the offending party to try to work things out. Then if they won't listen we may take two or three others. Then if they still won't listen we should tell the matter to the responsible overseers or tell it to the church.

If the offender will not hear the church then we have to pray for their conscience to be touched as if they are an outsider the faith. The offended person needs to look to God for grace. The church life is not a utopia. And love covers the multitude of sins.

The offended party should realize that they have probably done similar to others. But they are not sensitive to that usually. Usually we are only sensative when WE are the offended party.

Now, Brent Barber, I believe, was the son of a man really given to serve the Lord - James Barber. It could be that he has unhappy memories about being a "church kid". Some of the unhappiness may have some legitimate ground. Maybe moving too much like a military family or not having more time for his dad to do things with him.

For in the days when Brother Lee first was noticed in the US and surrounded by men and women dedicated to the vision he taught, they were very absolute.

My opinion is that perhaps Brent Barber has unhappy memories of being a young kid in this environment of his dad being very consecrated to serve the Lord. But I do not know for certain.

But I do know we are not going to drop down dead because of his unhappy feelings. I think those feelings are amplified into accusations which I will not pretend are my experience also. They are not. And that is not to say I was never offended or offended someone else.

So let Brent Barber have his say. But for his say there are plenty who do NOT share his bitterness. And maybe they had rough times JUST AS MUCH or even MORE than he did.