The Unchristian Christian

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have not answered the question. There are plenty of other passages which contradict your claim. Why are you ignoring them. Where does it say that giving up your worldly goods is optional?

I know you are trying to be difficult but here is the answer. Just before the same Matt 25 passage there is a parable about the talents. The purpose is to demonstrate that Christ does not expect the same degree of perfection from everyone. He does expect some effort. Here it is :

Matt 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Originally posted by Rajk999
First and most important ... the 'faith without works' strategy, is clearly outside of, and even contrary to the teachings of Christ. So Im not sure how any serious CHristion can 'pick that option'.

And your 'do what I can' option is similarly contrary to his teachings. So I'm not sure how any serious Christian can 'pick that option'.

As for 'buying your way into heaven', Im not quite sure what that means...
I think you do.

...but if I do as you suggest and sell all that I have and give it to the poor and become the poorest person around, is'nt that 'buying my way into heaven ?
If your only goal is to get into heaven then yes it is.
Jesus makes it quite clear that the most important commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor absolutely and completely without reservation. If you truly follow those commandments then giving all to the poor is the only option. You are trying to do the minimum possible (works) in order to secure a seat in heaven but you do not love your neighbor.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I know you are trying to be difficult but here is the answer. Just before the same Matt 25 passage there is a parable about the talents. The purpose is to demonstrate that Christ does not expect the same degree of perfection from everyone. He does expect some effort.

Your claim of 'very simple to understand' is looking shakier and shakier. I do not read that message from that parable at all. It thought it was saying the opposite. Work as hard as you can, and lack of ability is no excuse. You are the slothful servant without a doubt.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And your 'do what I can' option is similarly contrary to his teachings. .

Where is the proof of this ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
If your only goal is to get into heaven then yes it is..

The whole purpose of the life of a CHristian is to get salvation. To acheive this the Christian must folllow the 'love thy neighbour' commandment. And this is demostrated by DOING. You are not in a position to judge whether someone is doing enough or not enough. That is the job of Christ.

I really dont know what is meant by the expression 'buying your way into salvation' but Im sure that its better than 'talking your way into salvation'. Buying implies DOING which is superior to talking.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where is the proof of this ?

'How many times must I say it:

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

I don't read the Bible, but I seem to remember quite a lot more along the same lines. I have no doubt that you are being very selective in your reading and you know it.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The whole purpose of the life of a Cristian is to get salvation.

Again, you are interpreting to suit your self.

To acheive this the Christian must folllow the 'love thy neighbour' commandment. And this is demostrated by DOING. You are not in a position to judge whether someone is doing enough or not enough. That is the job of Christ.
Ahem ... haven't you been doing just that this whole thread?

I really dont know what is meant by the expression 'buying your way into salvation' but Im sure that its better than 'talking your way into salvation'. Buying implies DOING which is superior to talking.
It means doing whatever is necessary for the sole purpose of getting into heaven and not because it is the right thing to do.
You clearly do good works to get into heaven. Why do you think Jesus (or God) wants you to do good works? Is it some form of money to him? Why didn't he just ask you to stand on your head or indicate in some other way your desire to enter heaven? Why is doing superior to talking?

You are missing the whole point of the message. You are not trying to 'love thy neighbor' you are trying to buy your way into heaven. Charity for the sake of going to heaven is not an expression of love.

Just for fun -

"During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: "Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God." Today, this properly Christian ethical stance survives mostly in atheism....

Fundamentalists do what they perceive as good deeds in order to fulfill God's will and to earn salvation; atheists do them simply because it is the right thing to do. Is this also not our most elementary experience of morality? When I do a good deed, I do so not with an eye toward gaining God's favor; I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror. A moral deed is by definition its own reward. David Hume, a believer, made this point in a very poignant way, when he wrote that the only way to show true respect for God is to act morally while ignoring God's existence." - Slavoj Zizek
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/opinion/12zizek.html?ex=1299819600&en=aad912d2c0b75654&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Originally posted by twhitehead
'How many times must I say it:

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

I don't r ...[text shortened]... same lines. I have no doubt that you are being very selective in your reading and you know it.

How many times must I say it. This is the life that I try to live.
I am certainly not perfect.

You seem to be suggesting that I have to find every poor person on the planet and help them.

Originally posted by KingDavid403
I would suggest reading;
James chapter 2, verses 14-26
and verse 26 says,
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

James tells us here in verses 14-26 that if you have true faith in Jesus you will have good works also. The two go together.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD! meaning, you really don't have true fa ...[text shortened]... believer in Christ.
(The two go together like peas and carrots.) quoted by Forrest Gump. 🙂

Well said.

Originally posted by Rajk999
How many times must I say it. This is the life that I try to live.
I am certainly not perfect.

No, you said you were not capable of living that life and were not trying to.

You seem to be suggesting that I have to find every poor person on the planet and help them.
I am saying that you have to try your absolute best to do so.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, you said you were not capable of living that life and were not trying to.

[b]You seem to be suggesting that I have to find every poor person on the planet and help them.
I am saying that you have to try your absolute best to do so.[/b]

I said I was not capable of being PERFECT.
I am however capable of living the life described by Christ in Matt 25. But your interpretation of Matt 25 is differennt from mine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I said I was not capable of being PERFECT.

And hence you are not trying. You are burying your talent.

I am however capable of living the life described by Christ in Matt 25. But your interpretation of Matt 25 is differennt from mine.
So what is your interpretation of Matt 25?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Ahem ... haven't you been doing just that this whole thread?

The whole purpose of this thread is to express my opinion that
- excessive Bible study can lead to complacency, and
- the multitude of Christians who are misled into thinking that salvation can be attained though faith alone, go about their daily lives ignoring the importance of good works.

In both cases their actions do not relfect any of the teachings of Christ. I am making a general statement and not picking on any individual.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The whole purpose of this thread is to express my opinion that
- excessive Bible study can lead to complacency, and
- the multitude of Christians who are misled into thinking that salvation can be attained though faith alone, go about their daily lives ignoring the importance of good works.

But your argument is based on selective reading that is no better than the 'by faith alone' crowd.

In both cases their actions do not relfect any of the teachings of Christ.
Neither do yours.

I am making a general statement and not picking on any individual.
I am not trying to pick on an individual either but rather pointing out that your interpretation is no more justifiable than any other. You go as far as you are willing and then pick and choose and interpret to suit yourself.