the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
None of the teachings of Jesus contradict the following:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Jesus was consistent in His message. It's unfortunate that you choose not to believe in His teaching ttle point in trying to discuss anything with you. "You have eyes but cannot see."

Why do you continue to play these games? You only embarrass yourself by continually making false claims.
For at least the third time:
"It's likely that a large percentage of those who have made deathbed commitments fit this criteria."
----ToO--------------------------------------------


Me playing games? , pah!!! If you think your deathbed argument holds water then I doubt it's me that will be embarrassed.

You know that deathbed conversions are no evidence of anything at all. They do not count as examples of sinless , perfected lives because -erhem- well let's see...they're dead!!!!!!!

It's a bit like saying that a man is cured of a common cold by falling off a cliff because after he's hit the bottom he doesn't sneeze any more!" LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

It's obvious you are unable to find any examples of anyone who has been converted and then gone on to live a sinless life. It's a serious flaw in your theory , but I doubt you will admit it. 🙄

If you had any dignity you would admit right now that you are trying to defend a very sticky wicket and you were just silly to try in the first place. My guess is what you will do is just dissappear from view very quickly.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. Another concept that seems to be beyond you is how it is not possible for a human being to determine with absolute certainty that another human being's seem to believe that if you propose something often enough, it also becomes fact.

Another concept that seems to be beyond you is how it is not possible for a human being to determine with absolute certainty that another human being's heart is absolutely pure.-------ToO--------------

But has anyone claimed this purity or felt they had no need for confession to Christ? I agree that no-one can know another's heart , but we can know if there are people who claim to be sinless.

There are millions who will testify to Christ's blood covering their sin and his love and unconditional acceptance of them. How many are there who will testify to your version of the Gospel?

Is there anyone who has said.........

"I converted to Christ , and now I follow his teachings perfectly and I am now sinless . I have no need for confessing any sins at all because I am perfect and have no need for confession"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. Another concept that seems to be beyond you is how it is not possible for a human being to determine with absolute certainty that another human being's ...[text shortened]... seem to believe that if you propose something often enough, it also becomes fact.

A "theory" fully supported by the teachings of Jesus:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

---------ToO--------

.........depending on how you interpret them. Christ's exhortation for us to confess our sins daily contradicts your "theory" - but you won't admit it. At least I can admit that "be ye perfect " presents a problem for me - you do not have the humility to do the same with " forgive us our trespasses".

Originally posted by knightmeister
A "theory" fully supported by the teachings of Jesus:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

---------ToO--------

.........depending on how you interpret them. Christ's exhortation for us to confess our sins daily contradicts your "theory" - but you won't admit it. At least I can admit that "be ye perfect " presents a pro ...[text shortened]... me - you do not have the humility to do the same with " forgive us our trespasses".

it should not present a problem for you my friend, for it has been clearly established without a doubt that the Christ meant complete, not absolute perfection! such a view is ludicrous!

Originally posted by knightmeister
At least I will have a go at answering a question. We can all be evasive at times but ToO has it down to a fine art.

He is still talking to you. I on the other hand have asked a straight forward question in this thread regarding a central theme of Christianity and no Christian seems willing to even comment on it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually you missed it the first TWO times. Like usual you are so intent on making disparaging remarks that you are too blind to SEE what's right in front of your face. How many posts did you making telling me and others that I didn't answer your question? Even after having had it pointed out to you again? This is the way attempts to have a discussion usu ...[text shortened]... well as your own, perhaps it'll help open your eyes, so that you can "grow up" a little.

But do you actually think your "deathbed" answer is really any answer at all? I have made a strong logical argument as to why it is not and you have nothing to say.

What I am waiting for is an example of a single person who is evidence of the theory you put forward. Someone who can say.....

" Look , I am now converted and perfected and for the last few years I have never sinned. I now have no need of confession to christ!"

Such a person would constitute at least some evidence that your theory can actually work in practice. Can you provide such an example?

Originally posted by knightmeister
But do you actually think your "deathbed" answer is really any answer at all? I have made a strong logical argument as to why it is not and you have nothing to say.

What I am waiting for is an example of a single person who is evidence of the theory you put forward. Someone who can say.....

" Look , I am now converted and perfected and for the ...[text shortened]... me evidence that your theory can actually work in practice. Can you provide such an example?

What if humility is a part of perfection and thus no such 'perfect' person can actually proclaim their own perfection?

Originally posted by twhitehead
He is still talking to you. I on the other hand have asked a straight forward question in this thread regarding a central theme of Christianity and no Christian seems willing to even comment on it.

The point is that he talks but does not address - but you watch him now - will he be able to address the point I am making? Watch this space.

If you can't look back at the current exchanges between me and ToO objectively and honestly and see how he is avoiding the question then there you will have gone down in my estimation as a fair debator. You even backed him up with this ridiculous deathbed rubbish! You must realise by now that he is not able to provide one single example that his theory works in practice. Deathbed Christians do not provide such evidence for obvious reasons , why did you support him instead of pointing this out to him? You are not being objective or rational.

It should only have taken a post or two for ToO to see his mistake and admit that deathbed christians do not answer the question I was raising , instead I find I am wasting my time trying to get him to see his mistake - and guess what? ---he's gone a bit quiet. Maybe if you had helped me (because logically I was in the right) I would then have had the time and inclination to address your point.

The problem is that you are so obsessed with taking sides against christians that you have lost your sense of objectivity.

I challenge you to admit that ToO's deathbed argument was just a ridiculous smokescreen.

He is simply unable to find any examples of any humans who have been able to live according to his theory. Instead he has rsorted to people who have converted and then died (as if this proves something) - It's quite pathetic really.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually you missed it the first TWO times. Like usual you are so intent on making disparaging remarks that you are too blind to SEE what's right in front of your face. How many posts did you making telling me and others that I didn't answer your question? Even after having had it pointed out to you again? This is the way attempts to have a discussion usu well as your own, perhaps it'll help open your eyes, so that you can "grow up" a little.

How many posts did you making telling me and others that I didn't answer your question?
--------------ToO----------------

You assume that I missed your response because of some dark , devious reason? I actually missed it because ....well ...I just missed it......the answer to the question though is no answer at all and you know it - so what's your pleasure? We can either discuss the issues around why I missed your answer or actually stay on track and discuss the actual issue of your theory and what evidence there is for it.

What you like to do in these situations is focus on some side issue thus distracting things further and further away from the real issue. It's a pattern I am used to by now.

Are you prepared to get on track? Let's focus on the evidence and forget this deathbed stuff eh - it holds no water.

Are you able to provide evidence of any person who is /was a living example of your theory? How about someone who stayed alive for a bit after converting?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What if humility is a part of perfection and thus no such 'perfect' person can actually proclaim their own perfection?

But that would be false humility. The person claiming perfection would be claiming that christ had perfected them so would not be glorying in it. They would presumably be spreading the word to others so that all could share in it. If such a thing were possible why would someone withhold it from the world?

In any case , I don't see why someone would have to "proclaim" it. Just talk about it so that we could learn from it. If ToO (for example) was perfect and sinless , it's useless to the rest of us because he won't talk about it.

Stop playing games and open your eyes , you try sooooo hard to find problems and obstacles that you miss the bigger picture . He is deluding himself. No human being has ever been able to attain complete sinlessness in this life , but ToO's theory (to be viable) relies on this. His theory has no foundation in reality - it cannot be lived. Any theory of spirituality that cannot be lived out is bunk. It's like a plastic mobile phone that kids play with - fun , but totally useless in an emergency.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The point is that he talks but does not address - but you watch him now - will he be able to address the point I am making? Watch this space.

And my point is that that is typical Christian behavior.

If you can't look back at the current exchanges between me and ToO objectively and honestly and see how he is avoiding the question then there you will have gone down in my estimation as a fair debtor.
To be honest I haven't been reading most of the posts between you and him, but I have no doubt that you are correct and that he is avoiding the question. What I don't get is why it bothers you so much. Is it perhaps because you have mostly been debating against atheists who do not use that tactic nearly as much?

Maybe if you had helped me (because logically I was in the right) I would then have had the time and inclination to address your point.
So you also won't answer a question because you are upset about someone else not answering you? Doesn't that just perpetuate the problem?

The problem is that you are so obsessed with taking sides against christians that you have lost your sense of objectivity.
You clearly don't follow my posts very well. I am not obsessed with taking sides against Christians. I will take sides against anyone that I think is in the wrong whatever their faith or lack of it, and there have been times when I have supported Christians if I think their argument is good. As far as I know ToO is Christian and I have both supported some of his arguments and argued against some of them, but to a large extent I have not got very involved because he is debating Christian Theology that I am not particularly versed in nor particularly interested in.

I challenge you to admit that ToO's deathbed argument was just a ridiculous smokescreen.
It was a ridiculous smokescreen - it amused me nonetheless.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But that would be false humility. The person claiming perfection would be claiming that christ had perfected them so would not be glorying in it. They would presumably be spreading the word to others so that all could share in it. If such a thing were possible why would someone withhold it from the world?

In any case , I don't see why someone would ...[text shortened]... e a plastic mobile phone that kids play with - fun , but totally useless in an emergency.

I came into being before coming into being; nobody "perfects" me because I am perfect within my so called imperfection; when I dismiss your invention of my so called sinful nature your religion is getting even more meaningless😵

Originally posted by knightmeister
But that would be false humility. The person claiming perfection would be claiming that christ had perfected them so would not be glorying in it. They would presumably be spreading the word to others so that all could share in it. If such a thing were possible why would someone withhold it from the world?.

The question is not so easily decided. The thrust of my argument is not really on the word 'humility' but rather suggesting that there might be some clause, whatever it may be, that precludes sinless people from announcing to the world that they are sinless ie it might be a sin to say you are sinless.

If ToO (for example) was perfect and sinless , it's useless to the rest of us because he won't talk about it.
And maybe you knowing about it is not that important either. Surely you do not pray for forgiveness for the purpose of telling everybody else that your sins have been forgiven?

He is deluding himself.
But I already think all Christians are deluding themselves, whats new?

No human being has ever been able to attain complete sinlessness in this life,
That depends on your understanding of sin. I personally have never thought the whole concept of unavoidable sin eg you sin just by existing, never made much sense.
In your understanding of sin, how long on average to you remain sinless after receiving forgiveness? Does the taint of sin hit you instantaneously or does it take a while? Do you deliberately or knowingly sin? Why?

His theory has no foundation in reality - it cannot be lived. Any theory of spirituality that cannot be lived out is bunk. It's like a plastic mobile phone that kids play with - fun , but totally useless in an emergency.
So if Christ taught an unworkable message, do you declare that since he could not have been wrong you must necessarily have interpreted him wrong? Do you not see the danger in interpreting according to your desires?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And my point is that that is typical Christian behavior.

[b]If you can't look back at the current exchanges between me and ToO objectively and honestly and see how he is avoiding the question then there you will have gone down in my estimation as a fair debtor.
To be honest I haven't been reading most of the posts between you and him, but I have n ridiculous smokescreen.[/b]
It was a ridiculous smokescreen - it amused me nonetheless.[/b]

"To be honest I haven't been reading most of the posts between you and him, but I have no doubt that you are correct and that he is avoiding the question."

Before you draw a conclusion like that, don't you think you should read the posts in question? While it's a pain, I think you'll find it informative.

KM:

(BTW- I challenge you to name a single person living or dead who has repented and committed to Jesus and then has never sinned again - if you can't think of anyone at all then you only have 3 options

1) Jesus was mistaken in the verses on sin and didn't understand human nature

2) The whole of humanity just isn't trying hard enough and not one single person has been able to live sinlessly (yet)

3) ThinkOfOne perceptions are skewed and there is a very different way of looking at things.

Right now 3 looks the most likely to me )

My response:

Like most of your "challenges" and questions, this one is seriously flawed. For one, the teachings of Jesus are not only about one's actions, but about what's in one's heart as I pointed out above. If I go by what you've written here, it's really pretty easy. It's likely that a large percentage of those who have made deathbed commitments fit this criteria. If you want to go by a person's heart, there is no way for another human being to be able "prove" another's heart is pure is there? Likewise, unless the person sins outwardly, there's no way for anyone to "prove" that their heart isn't pure...You can continue to hang on to your rationalization that it's okay for you to continue to commit sin because you have no "proof" that anyone else has done it.

Just keep in mind that Jesus taught otherwise:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

"Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering it. But the gate is narrow and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are they who find it."

The point is that the "challenge" is seriously flawed. For one, whether or not KM believes it possible, doesn't change what Jesus taught. Somehow he is under the mistaken belief that it does. For another, the "challenge" essentially asks for "proof" of the unprovable - if you can't prove someone's heart is pure, how can you cite them as an example. The "deathbed committment" was just an easy answer to a very poorly thought out proposition.

What's interesting is KM's response. Like usual KM completely ignored the points of my response in order for him to go in to a rant.:

You can't seem to think of anyone who has lived as Jesus commanded they should. Not one single person who has been able to commit to Jesus and actually never needed to confess their sin again?

Your argument is bunk because what is in one's heart will manifest itself in behaviour. Therefore if someone really had been able to attain a state of complete purity we would know by their deeds.

Can you name one person , living or dead , who has attained complete purity of heart so that they have no need of Jesus's sacrifice and no need to confess any sin ( thought or deed)? If not then my original argument stands.

So I try again to point out the points of my original post:

"You can't seem to think of anyone who has lived as Jesus commanded they should. Not one single person who has been able to commit to Jesus and actually never needed to confess their sin again?...Can you name one person , living or dead , who has attained complete purity of heart so that they have no need of Jesus's sacrifice and no need to confess any sin ( thought or deed)? If not then my original argument stands."

I don't know what you don't understand about what I posted earlier:
"It's likely that a large percentage of those who have made deathbed commitments fit this criteria." Besides the entire premise of your "challenge" is flawed as I also explained earlier. Whether or not you believe it possible does not change what Jesus taught.

"Your argument is bunk because what is in one's heart will manifest itself in behaviour. Therefore if someone really had been able to attain a state of complete purity we would know by their deeds.

Once again, I don't know what you don't understand about what I posted earlier:
"If you want to go by a person's heart, there is no way for another human being to be able 'prove' another's heart is pure is there? Likewise, unless the person sins outwardly, there's no way for anyone to 'prove' that their heart isn't pure.

While a person's actions can demonstrate a heart that is not pure, there is no way that a human being can say with absolute certainty that another human being's heart is pure. There's always the chance that the person was merely "playing the part".

I not only again point out the flaws in his "challenge", but repeat it only to have KM completely ignore my post and continue on his rant.

The fact remains that you are still unable to provide one single example of any human being who has lived or is living the way Jesus (in your interpretation) commanded via his teachings.

Are you not able to find at least one person who might have a chance of fitting the bill?

If you can't then doesn't that suggest that your theory has some serious problems? You can waffle all you like about whether we can see into a person's heart or not , but you know as well as I do that a man's heart will reflect in his life (By their fruits will you know them) so we should still be able to locate them.

Given this you still cannot find one single example of anyone who has attained the state of heart you think we should all have. You have around 10-12 billion people to chose from and you cannot find one example? Curious. Not one that even gets close?

I propose that your theory is just that - a theory - that has no relation to reality....
At least I will have a go at answering a question. We can all be evasive at times but ToO has it down to a fine art.



Then he went into all that nonsense about having just "missed it". I mean I can understand missing it the first time, but when he misses it again in a post that was written expressly to point out that he had missed it, you really have to wonder about the guy.

Anyway, if you primarily pay attention to KM's ranting, which is undoubtedly difficult to ignore, then you have a distorted picture that can only lead you to draw false conclusions. What's really amazing is how KM complains that I refuse to discuss the issue in good faith, when he's the one who doesn't. It's impossible to have a rational discussion with someone so irrational. Much of my time is spent repeatedly defending against unfounded accusations and trying to explain concepts that seem to be beyond him.

No doubt he'll keep complaining how I won't answer his questions and that I ignore him. It's because he's been pulling this kind of nonsense for months.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Before you draw a conclusion like that, don't you think you should read the posts in question? While it's a pain, I think you'll find it informative.

You are correct, my conclusion was too hasty considering that I did not read through all the posts. I apologize and withdraw the statement.
I do however have some questions of my own:
1. What do you mean when you talk of 'pure of heart' and 'perfect'. I personally can see an interpretation of 'pure of heart' that means that you never deliberately sin, but that does not necessarily mean that you spend the absolute maximum amount of time doing good as one would expect if someone was perfectly good.
So when you say 'perfect' do you just mean 'pure of heart' or is there a further level of perfection? I suspect knightmeister is focusing on the 'perfect' aspect and expects to see someone who gives his whole life to doing good.
2. Do you believe that there are many people on the earth that fit the description given by Jesus? Yes I realize that you are arguing that it is impossible to tell, but what is your best guess?