The Islamisation of Europe?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It seems to me the article has a punitive, self-satisfied tone. "You see what happens when you abandon Christianity and embrace selfish, hedonistic...You let the Allah-freaks outbreed you...We told you so..."

Anything to further degrade the Fundies? If there's nothing inherently wrong with the argument, pick on the way it's brought across, huh?

I didn't claim that this was an award winning article by any stretch of the liberal mind; I thought it had some interesting contentions that could make for exciting discussion – like a comparison of “Western” and Middle-Eastern/North African culture.

If this is going to be another slugging match, then Pffft 😛.

Originally posted by Halitose
An increased Muslim (and decreased "Western" ) population would result in a transformation of both cultural and political norms (e.g Sharia Law) in Europe.

Religion has no political place in a secular state, and so "imported" muslims can't really affect politics with their religion. As for culture, it might be that islamic customs become the predominant ones.

Then again, who cares? So long as noone is forced to confess to a specific church or has their civil rights violated by the majority, all is well the way I see it.

Of course, that's not true for a lot of people now even, but it's a goal.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It seems to me the article has a punitive, self-satisfied tone. "You see what happens when you abandon Christianity and embrace selfish, hedonistic...You let the Allah-freaks outbreed you...We told you so..."

In addition to wildly overstating the future rate of growth of Islamic families in (e.g.) European countries, proponents of this type of argument typically assume (a) there is one thing called "Sharia law" (generally the argument assumes the harshest institutionalised form of Sharia law is the only form), and (b) all Muslims just can't wait for the day when this extreme, institutionalised Sharia law comes into force across the globe. I know a fair few third, second and even first generation immigrants who would be absolutely mortified at that prospect.

Originally posted by Halitose
I didn't claim that this was an award winning article by any stretch of the liberal mind; I thought it had some interesting contentions that could make for exciting discussion – like a comparison of “Western” and Middle-Eastern/North African culture.

As far as I can tell the only light the article sheds on other cultures is to highlight their indefatigable capacity to reproduce; despite the supposedly greater opportunity in the West to assuage the libido, the Europeans just cannot seem to keep up, which dooms them to a similar fate to the Etruscans. Muslims are the Morlocks to the effete Eloi of London, Paris and Berlin.

Originally posted by stocken
Religion has no political place in a secular state, and so "imported" muslims can't really affect politics with their religion. As for culture, it might be that islamic customs become the predominant ones.

Then again, who cares? So long as noone is forced to confess to a specific church or has their civil rights violated by the majority, all is well the way I see it.

Of course, that's not true for a lot of people now even, but it's a goal.

That is the big question. Does the religion of Islam carry political ramifications?

There are several predominantly Islamic countries that have "secular" constitutions and laws (e.g. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turkey) but the converse is also true (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, pre-US invasion Afghanistan).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
As far as I can tell the only light the article sheds on other cultures is to highlight their indefatigable capacity to reproduce; despite the supposedly greater opportunity in the West to assuage the libido, the Europeans just cannot seem to keep up, which dooms them to a similar fate to the Etruscans. Muslims are the Morlocks to the effete Eloi of London, Paris and Berlin.

Ergo the need for further input and discussion.

(Your lovely misconstrued representation of the article's position notwithstanding)

Originally posted by Halitose
Does the religion of Islam carry political ramifications?

Is it possible for muslims (or any other religious followers) to force their dogma using politics, among people whom has enjoyed the benefits of secularity?

I suppose so, but it won't happen silently or within any time soon. I'm certain of that much. Before giving up on my and my peers religious freedom I'd die. Before being told how to live my life from a script supposedly divine, it would have to make sense to me. I'm guessing that most europeans (and "imported" muslims) will agree with me on that. The benefits of secularity are far too many to give up once you've enjoyed them.

Originally posted by Halitose
Ergo the need for further input and discussion. (Your lovely misconstrued representation of the article's position notwithstanding)

Discussing the politics behind the article might be worthwhile. What do you think this particular propaganda writer's aims were?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Discussing the politics behind the article might be worthwhile. What do you think this particular propaganda writer's aims were?

What do you think this particular propaganda writer's aims were?

A return to family ("Christian" ) values?

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]What do you think this particular propaganda writer's aims were?

A return to family ("Christian" ) values?[/b]

Why does it take the spectre of Muslim hordes to prompt this return?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Why does it take the spectre of Muslim hordes to prompt this return?

You're putting the cart before the horse. First you have to prove that the writer's assertions are baseless homophobic drivel and then you can move on to label it as such. But whatever... will you be happy when I say that he's a ethnophobic bigot? Or is it just perhaps that "Western" culture is generally ethnophobic?

Originally posted by Halitose
You're putting the cart before the horse. First you have to prove that the writer's assertions are baseless homophobic drivel and then you can move on to label it as such. But whatever... will you be happy when I say that he's a ethnophobic bigot? Or is it just perhaps that "Western" culture is generally ethnophobic?

I don't think you understand me. Implicit in the article's rhetoric is that an undesirable Muslim-dominated future (you agree that the author portrays such a future as undesirable?) can be combated by a counter-breeding program--a return to family values, if you like. Now a return to family values might well be a good thing--but in this case, it is promoted by the spectre of an alien future, rather than some positive motive such as greater social cohesion or what have you. No?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I don't think you understand me. Implicit in the article's rhetoric is that an undesirable Muslim-dominated future (you agree that the author portrays such a future as undesirable?) can be combated by a counter-breeding program--a return to family values, if you like. Now a return to family values might well be a good thing--but in this case, it is pro ...[text shortened]... future, rather than some positive motive such as greater social cohesion or what have you. No?

Gotcha. I beg to differ, though; I think you are incorrectly highlighting the "spectre of alien future" rather than a crumbling of European culture as the reason to promote family values. The "spectre of alien future" is merely the cause for such a said crumbling. I think any reason X would be sufficient to encourage reaction Y if X was causing the destruction of your own culture - which I find rather ironic as it is two non-Europeans that are discussing it.

Originally posted by Halitose
A return to family ("Christian" ) values?

Family values can't exist without christianity (or islam)? I beg to differ. The solution is really quite simple. Make us europeans poor, and soon enough we'll start reproducing like crazy (there's no other entertainment we can afford, and let's face it - few things can beat truly extatic sex in whatever form).

If, on top of that, we can't feel safe due to plague-like sexual diseases and crude criminality lurking around the corners, we'll stick with a selected few sexual partners, attempting to build solid big families to protect us.

Then, as we're poor and desperately looking for a meaning to it all (since we don't have the time or resources to pursue our true interests in life), I'm sure there'll be plenty of business for an organised church (just make sure you beat the muslims to it).

Originally posted by stocken
Family values can't exist without christianity (or islam)? I beg to differ. The solution is really quite simple. Make us europeans poor, and soon enough we'll start reproducing like crazy (there's no other entertainment we can afford, and let's face it - few things can beat truly extatic sex in whatever form).

If, on top of that, we can't feel safe due to ...[text shortened]... lenty of business for an organised church (just make sure you beat the muslims to it).

Family values can't exist without christianity (or islam)?

I make no such claim... hence the inverted commas in my statement.

Do you claim that humans exist only for the purpose of being entertained? Wouldn't poverty encourage fewer children rather than more in a modern European setting?