Muppyman,
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Two things here confuse me slightly.
You mention that the human spirit is "quickened" and "made alive".
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Quickened is a kind of old fashion word which I probably would do better not to use.
"Made alive" is the phrase I would prefer. The New Testament discribes the fallen sinner as "dead" a number of times:
"And you, though dead in your offenses and sins ..." (Eph.2:1)
"Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ" (Eph. 2:5)
"And you, though dead in your offenses ... He made alive together with Him ..." (Col. 2:13)
Aside from these we see Jesus discribing "the dead" (spiritually):
"But He said to him, Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go abd announce the kingdom of God ..." (Luke 9:60)
Aside from physical deadness Jesus spoke of spiritual deadness. This following passage discribes not physical resurrection but spiritual resurrection of all who hear the voice of the Son of God:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, And hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)
This is distinct from the promise in the same chapter that the physically dead "in the tombs" will be resurrected physically by the Son of God (v. 28)
God's warning to Adam was that the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. This means that from his innermost part, his spirit, death began to work in him until he physically died also.
The human spirit is dead, yet not so totally so that at least one function of it remains. That is the conscience. The conscience is part of the human spirit. I wish I had a word to discribe the spirit as very imparied yet not so that the conscience part of it is not completely gone.
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What is the difference between those two things? Surely they have the same meaning. It's like saying something is finished and ended.Can you explain please?
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When I used the words "quickened" and "made alive" I did not have in mind any difference. This was only done for emphasis. I do not intend to make a difference between "made alive" and "quickened".
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Also, presumably, Christ-righteousness is not to be confused with Krishna-consciousness. or am I mistaken?
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I don't know much about "Krishna-consciousness". That, I believe, would be related to Hinduism.
Originally posted by muppymanI would not consider the judtification by faith that Abraham experienced as any kind of "by pass" of Christ.
I forgot to mention, I saw somewhere a text which said "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness" Does that mean old Abe was given a special dispensation to bypass Christ-righteousness?
I would consider it instead a "pre-curser" and "preview" of justification by faith in Christ. I would consider that and the justification experienced by those Jews who trusted in the offerings, to be a prototype of the act of Christ to come.
Christ is the center of the Bible. And God's dealing with Abraham, the partriarchs, and the Hebrews were foreshadows in anticipation of the eternal redemption accomplished by Christ to come.
They did not "by-pass". They anticipated and looked forward to Christ in types, in shadows, in symbols educationally used by God until the redemption of Jesus Christ was accomplished.
Romans chapter four speaks much about Abraham and the anticipated justification in Christ. And Colossians shows that the Old Testament contained many shadows of the Christ to come:
" Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect of a new moon or of the Sabbath,
Which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is of Christ." (Col. 2:16,17)
Originally posted by LemonJelloThere may be something in this that you can identify with a little.
Yeah, because this all just makes so much sense. Right, everybody?
Do you remember Jimi Hendrix? Hendrix wrote a song ("I Don't Live Today") in which he said:
I don't live today ... I only know that I don't live today. I feel like I'm living at the bottom of a grave... Will I live tomorrow? I just can't say. I'm only sure I don't live today."
You could also hear him weeping to drive home the effect of the lyric.
This was Jimi Hendrix's way of pointing out that he realized SOMETHING was missing in his human life. There seems a dimension or something which he should have but did not. "I don't live today."
Hendrix is by no means the only artist to have pointed this out.
This feeling of something not full and incomplete about human life is the sense of death in the innermost being. It is the human being sensing that he is a vacuum within.
This is the feeling of the comatose human spirit. It is dead because of sin. And justification through joining Jesus Christ makes the deadened spirit come alive.
The green in the trees is greener. The whole universe seems somehow friendlier. Now you can not just argue and philosophies about God. You can have such a normal loving and intimate communion with your "Heavenly Father".
The distant "philosophical" God is no longer distant and seemingly aloof. God becomes your Father in a very sweet way.
Anyway, even though some of my theology may leave you puzzled, I thought you could identify with Jimi Hendrix's song "I Don't Live Today" as the cry of a man longing to actually be born again just like the Gospel of John states.
"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - Marvel not that I say to you that you must be born again." says Jesus the Son of God.
Originally posted by jaywillGet a new shtick, jaywill.
There may be something in this that you can identify with a little.
Do you remember Jimi Hendrix? Hendrix wrote a song ([b]"I Don't Live Today") in which he said:
I don't live today ... I only know that I don't live today. I feel like I'm living at the bottom of a grave... Will I live tomorrow? I just can't say. I'm only sure I don't live t ...[text shortened]... ay to you that you must be born again." says Jesus the Son of God.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillSuppose a man found himself, one day, unexpectedly sexually attracted to other human beings below the age of consent.
I don't know.
The mind is part of the soul.
The three functions of the soul are Mind, Emotion, Will.
Would this be a defect of the brain, mind, soul, or spirit?
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYou're speaking of just a thought at this point. A useful proverb about fleeting thoughts of sinners is this:
Suppose a man found himself, one day, unexpectedly sexually attracted to other human beings below the age of consent.
Would this be a defect of the brain, mind, soul, or spirit?
"You can't stop a bird from flying over your head. You can stop it from making a nest in your hair."
Just the fleeting thought may not be serious. Following through with the will to perform an action would be a cause of concern.
Let's not worry about it if it is just a passing thought. All people have fleeting thoughts of all kinds of things. There is lust in our fallen bodies that influence the thoughts.
Originally posted by jaywillAnswer the question.
You're speaking of just a thought at this point. A useful proverb about fleeting thoughts of sinners is this:
[b]"You can't stop a bird from flying over your head. You can stop it from making a nest in your hair."
Just the fleeting thought may not be serious. Following through with the will to perform an action would be a cause of concer ...[text shortened]... l people have fleeting thoughts of all kinds of things. There is lust in our fallen bodies.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywill"God's warning to Adam was that the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. This means that from his innermost part, his spirit, death began to work in him until he physically died also."
Muppyman,
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Two things here confuse me slightly.
You mention that the human spirit is "quickened" and "made alive".
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Quickened is a kind of old fashion word which I probably would do better not to use.
"Made alive" is the phrase I would pref ...[text shortened]... onsciousness". That, I believe, would be related to Hinduism.[/b]
I am impressed to see you state with such confidence an exact explanation of what God meant when He spoke to Adam. Were you there? Or have you asked him? Or is that just another convenient assumption to fit into your verbose promulgations?
The whole realm of touching God and substantiating subjectively God and Christ is in the realm of the excercise of the regenerated spirit.
Prayer that is genuine is an excercise of the spirit.
The regenerated spirit is also called "the inner man" and the believer in Christ needs to be "strengthened" into that realm.
First the spirit needs to be made like because of righteousness. Then the person with the regenerated spirit needs to be strenghtened into that realm. They need to be strengthened into the realm of the regenerated spirit because they are not use to living from that source:
The Apostle Paul's prayer was that the Christians would be strengthened into the realm of their born again spirit - the inner man:
" That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man." (Eph. 3:16)
It is possible to have a very strong mind and yet have a very week spirit. That person is soulish and not spiritual. Such a person needs not only regeneration but also the be strenghtened with power by the Holy Spirit into the inner man.
The inner man is the man within joined to the resurrected Jesus - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
To experience God one must be strengthened into that realm and sphere where one is joined to the Lord Jesus.
1.) You must be born again in the innermost being the human spirit.
2.) Because you are not use to living from that source you need to be strengthened into the inner man.
Originally posted by jaywillSo you are refusing to answer bbar's question then?
The whole realm of touching God and substantiating subjectively God and Christ is in the realm of the excercise of the regenerated spirit.
Prayer that is genuine is an excercise of the spirit.
The regenerated spirit is also called [b]"the inner man" and the believer in Christ needs to be "strengthened" into that realm.
First the ...[text shortened]... are not use to living from that source you need to be strengthened into the inner man.[/b]
In the three parts of man God's salvation takes different amounts of time.
The regeneration of the spirit is fast - instantaneous. It takes only seconds.
The transfifiguration of the body is also fastt. It will occur "in the twinkiling of an eye."
In between these two is the transformation of the soul. This is not fast. This is not instantaneous. The transformation of the soul requires a life time of coopertation with Christ.
The tranformation of the soul is the changing of the mind, emotion, and will to be like that of Jesus Christ. This takes a long time.
But to be reborn takes a split second. And to have the body glorified will only take a split second.
This passage speaks of the transformation of the soul:
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit" ( 2 Cor .3:17,18)
1.) The Lord Jesus today can be know because He is the Spirit - "Now the Lord is the Spirit".
" ... the last Adam became a life givng Spirit"
2.) Turning our heart to the Lord Jesus is like beholding and reflecting the Lord Jesus. We are like a mirror being transformed into the image of the One we are beholding and reflecting.
This is why we need to log a lot of time with our heart turned toward the Lord Jesus. When we speak to the Lord as a Person and love Him as a Person and open our heart to Him as a living Person our heart is turned to the Lord.
The whole world is designed to distract us from the Lord Jesus who is the life givng Spirit. When we receive Him and He comes into our hearts then we need to turn our heart to "gaze" upon the Lord Jesus.
We have pray ourselves into His presence and linger there. The more we linger in the presence of the resurrected Christ the more we are transformed into His image.
This transformation is from one degree of expression to the next, to the next, to the next - from glory to glory.
Glory is God expressed. In finer and finer degress the soul begins to express the indwelling Christ. This is the transformation of the soul into the image of the Lord Who is the life giving Spirit.
It takes time.
Originally posted by bbarrI said:
Answer the question.
"There is lust in our fallen bodies that influence the thoughts."
" For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin and death which is in my members." (Rom. 7:23)
This verse discribes a law of sin like the law of gravity working in the members of the fallen body. The lustful thoughts in the mind somehow are nutured by the law of sin in the members of the fallen body.
"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death. Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The self condemnation was upon the man Paul because he felt a captive to the lust in his fallen body, in the members of his fallen body. These lusts drove him against his inner delight in the law of God.
The Apostle Peter also says that fleshly lusts war against the soul.
"Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lust which wage war against the soul." (2 Peter 2:11)
Read the entire 7th chapter of the book of Romans to see Paul's exposition of how the fallen and transmuted body wars against the better judgments of the human conscience and the human soul.
That is all I will say at this point. And I do not understand everything about this.
Originally posted by muppymanSpellbound? Impressed?
"God's warning to Adam was that the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. This means that from his innermost part, his spirit, death began to work in him until he physically died also."
I am impressed to see you state with such confidence an exact explanation of what God meant when He spoke to Adam. ...[text shortened]... ed him? Or is that just another convenient assumption to fit into your verbose promulgations?
Oh please write it again?
Have you always been such a phony or did you learn that after you hit 70?
To be regenerated is to have the human spirit resurrected and made alive.
It is also to become a partaker of the divine nature. Something of the nature of God is dispensed into the person born of the Spirit in his spirit:
" ... He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature ...." (2 Peter 1:4a)
That is not simply "proving that God exists". That is partaking of the divine nature.
That is not merely becoming a spectator or an observer of the divine nature. It is becoming a participant in the divine nature - "partakers of the divine nature".
So being born again is not a matter of deciding to turn over a new leaf or launch into a self improvement effort. One has to realize through the new birth he has become a partaker of the divine nature.
Part of their being has become God. At least the human spirit has become God. The human spirit has become joined to the Lord who is God and become "one spirit" with the Lord.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
The regenerated spirit is now divine life because of righteousness (Rom. 8:10)
In John's Gospel Christ promises that the Divine We - He and His Father, will come into His lover and make an abode with them.
In doing so the believers become partakers of the divine nature.
"Jesus answered and said to him, if anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The Triune God will come to the lover of Christ and make an abode with him or her. This makes her or his spirit one spirit with the Lord. And this causes them to become a partaker of the divine nature.
This is a divine inner birth. www.regenerated.net