28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWell, there are many who claim to believe in Jesus Christ, yet the Jesus Christ they believe in isn't the real one.
I thought a Christian worshiped Christ, not the Bible. Thanks for clearing that up.
Mormons, for instance, believe (1) Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers and that mankind are the spiritual descendants of both, (2) Jesus was conceived naturally like all other children, (3) Jesus was a created being and not eternal, and (4) salvation by grace alone is a lie of Satan. All of which are contrary to the biblical account.
It doesn't matter how sincere someone's faith is, if that faith does not rest in the real Jesus Christ, as He is found in scripture, then such faith is useless.
Christians don't worship the bible, nevertheless the Bible is an indispensable guide to right belief.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasOf course, Mormoms don't believe in any of those things and you, like most fundies on this site, are sadly misinformed about other belief systems.
Well, there are many who claim to believe in Jesus Christ, yet the Jesus Christ they believe in isn't the real one.
Mormons, for instance, believe (1) Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers and that mankind are the spiritual descendants of both, (2) Jesus was conceived naturally like all other children, (3) Jesus was a created being and not et ...[text shortened]... s don't worship the bible, nevertheless the Bible is an indispensable guide to right belief.
"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. Maybe you should read the Bible.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderOne must know one's audience.
Of course, Mormoms don't believe in any of those things and you, like most fundies on this site, are sadly misinformed about other belief systems.
"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. Maybe you should read the Bible.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think anyone is claiming that our present world isn't real. The point being, whatever is visible to us is contingent upon an implicate and unseen reality, and our present visible world is only an "illusion" in comparison to that underlying and enfolded order.
Nowhere in the Bible is there a suggestion that the reality we see is illusionary. CHristianity makes no such assertion and to suggest that QM lends any support to a Christian world view is bunk. The Bible rather clearly states that God made real things out of nothing ("creation"😉.
The Bible may not use the exact word "illusion" when speaking about the present visible world, but it does make it abundantly clear that the present visible world is temporary (that is, it does not have the same reality compared to that which is eternal).
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"For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (James 4:14).
"My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass. But thou, O LORD, shall endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations" (Psalm 102:11-12).
"As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more" (Psalm 103:15-16).
"The grass withers, the flower fades, because the breath of the LORD blows upon it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever" (Isaiah 40:7-8).
"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23).
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth" (Colossians 3:1-2).
"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Corinthians 4:18).
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35).
"Those who use the things of the world should not become attached to them. For this world as we know it will soon pass away" (1 Corinthians 7:31).
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Revelation 21:1).
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThere isn't anything in QM about observed reality being temporary. And yes people do claim that the observed world isn't real and have done so for thousands of years before there was a Christianity! Again, you are showing ignorance and quoting a bunch of irrelevant Scripture doesn't help you.
I don't think anyone is claiming that our present world isn't real. The point being, whatever is visible to us is contingent upon an implicate and unseen reality, and our present visible world is only an "illusion" in comparison to that underlying and enfolded order.
The Bible may not use the exact word "illusion" when speaking about th ...[text shortened]... earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Revelation 21:1).
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauder😴
Of course, Mormoms don't believe in any of those things and you, like most fundies on this site, are sadly misinformed about other belief systems.
"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. Maybe you should read the Bible.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWe've had this discussion before. And it's an absurd discussion. You cling to one passage from scripture and disregard all the rest, while constantly making all kinds of bogus presumptions and ad hominem attacks. If you want to believe that God only allows those who are "good enough" into heaven, that's your problem. The truth is, you don't really care about what the Bible has to say, and so it's pointless for anyone to correct your error, since that error serves your line of argumentation too well to forfeit.
Remain in error then. I'm sure someone told you what to believe and you believe it. That's no way for a Man to go through life.
To each their own.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI find it absurd that so-called "Christians" ignore the words of Jesus when he is directly describing Judgment Day and the criteria that will be used (BY HIM). But no; let's go to Paul's letters for the definitive word on what Jesus REALLY meant (The Book of James doesn't get much consideration either).
We've had this discussion before. And it's an absurd discussion. You cling to one passage from scripture and disregard all the rest, while constantly making all kinds of bogus presumptions and ad hominem attacks. If you want to believe that God only allows those who are "good enough" into heaven, that's your problem. The truth is, you don't really ca ...[text shortened]... e that error serves your line of argumentation too well to forfeit.
To each their own.
Your post is self-parody; you accuse others of your sin.
28 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauder"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. MARAUDER
Of course, Mormoms don't believe in any of those things and you, like most fundies on this site, are sadly misinformed about other belief systems.
"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. Maybe you should read the Bible.
Think about it for a minute . None us created the earth , or brought ourselves into existence , OR can sustain ourselves without the gifts that the universe brings. Life in it's entirity is a complete gift. You did not choose to be born or what body / mind you have. The very air you breathe is a gift to you. How then is God's gift of salvation likely to be anything other than a gift of grace from him to us? Even if we could "save ourselves" as it were , we couldn't do it without God's grace and help. Jesus CONSISTENTLY refered to how his father made all things possible. ( "no-one can come to me except the father brings him...."etc etc ).
What you forget is that true grace is always accompanied by works and effort. I have been trying really hard this week to do things God's way and not mine , but the power to do this (or even try) does not originate in me , how can it , I did not create myself!
We have no goodness that is ours , it only becomes ours when we realise it is a gift anyway. We can only become good enough if the source of all goodness grants it to us.
28 Sep 07
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Originally posted by no1marauderPaul does not say anything contrary to Jesus. He is quite clear that all people, righteous and unrighteous alike, will stand before God at the Final Judgment: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).
I find it absurd that so-called "Christians" ignore the words of Jesus when he is directly describing Judgment Day and the criteria that will be used (BY HIM). But no; let's go to Paul's letters for the definitive word on what Jesus REALLY meant (The Book of James doesn't get much consideration either).
Your post is self-parody; you accuse others of your sin.
But neither does Paul contradict Jesus when Jesus says that we are saved by faith, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).
Paul agrees with Jesus in this regard as well when he says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).
The Final Judgment for the Christian is regarding his works (2 Cor. 5:10). It does not affect salvation because being in Christ (Rom. 8:1) a Christian's works play no part in his or her salvation (Rom. 4:5).
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What you require is a more comprehensive, in-depth study of scripture.
29 Sep 07
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Originally posted by epiphinehasRomans, Romans, Romans ..................
Paul does not say anything contrary to Jesus. He is quite clear that all people, righteous and unrighteous alike, will stand before God at the Final Judgment: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10). ---------------
What you require is a more comprehensive, in-depth study of scripture.
You guys need a different name: Christians you're not. Matthew 25 makes it quite clear that Jesus is talking about who will go to Heaven and who won't. A 1000 quotes from Paul won't change that. You can't "believeth on him that sent me" and not express that by acts of charity and mercy towards your fellow man if you want salvation.
What you need to do is actually study Jesus' words, not Paul's, if you want an understanding of his theology. But keep worshipping a book, not Jesus if you want to.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou're committing the Fallacy of Equivocation again. It seems as natural to fundies as breathing. "Salvation by Grace alone" is the doctrine that no works at all are required and you know it. Stop trying to change the meaning of every phrase when you find it convenient to your fallacious arguments.
"Salvation by Grace alone" is contrary to the Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46. MARAUDER
Think about it for a minute . None us created the earth , or brought ourselves into existence , OR can sustain ourselves without the gifts that the universe brings. Life in it's entirity is a complete gift. You did not choose to be born or what body / mind you h ...[text shortened]... nyway. We can only become good enough if the source of all goodness grants it to us.
Yes the human race is all crap according to your theology, although oddly enough it is also the reason why Super Duper God made the whole universe. More silly contradictions from a ridiculous superstition of semi-savages.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderYou are a riot.
Romans, Romans, Romans ..................
You guys need a different name: Christians you're not. Matthew 25 makes it quite clear that Jesus is talking about who will go to Heaven and who won't. A 1000 quotes from Paul won't change that. You can't "believeth on him that sent me" and not express that by acts of charity and mercy towards your ...[text shortened]... an understanding of his theology. But keep worshipping a book, not Jesus if you want to.
Why don't you conduct your own study of Christ's words, no1?
Here's a good place to start:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:16-18).