14 Nov 08
Originally posted by PalynkaSure. All I say is that religion is a fine flag under which you have all the excuses of the world to do your thing and walk away. That 's why I am sure that nothing holiest than having intact the people you love, along with some food and a warm home.
More because of the lack of bread, lack of hope, lack of future.
When would a violent version of any ideal be most successful?
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by black beetleAmen, brother.
Sure. All I say is that religion is a fine flag under which you have all the excuses of the world to do your thing and walk away. That 's why I am sure that nothing holiest than having intact the people you love, along with some food and a warm home.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadnaturally you cannot find any pretext for violence in the teachings of Christ, therefore you must attack something else that Christians hold to be sacred, the bible, i do not blame you it was an impossible task and quite predictable, however of necessity we must take your silence as admittance that there is no pretext for violence within the teachings of Christ and as a logical consequence those who act in a manner contrary to the teachings of Christ are in fact not Christians but something else, for a christian is quite simply one who follows the teachings of Christ. as to the violence perpetrated in the bible i have nothing to say other than it was perpetrated by Jews and i will make no attempt to justify it, no siree. As to the Koranic verses, i produce these for your perusal,
I notice how you carefully restrict your claim to 'the teachings of Christ'. But that does not address the religion of Christianity which by the way is not solely based on the teachings of Christ.
Are you willing to admit that the Bible contains many examples of violence perpetrated in the name of God and commanded or acted out by God?
If so then why do ...[text shortened]... lease list a few of the Quranic verses that give permission for or demand the use of violence.
The Qur'an, chapter 4 (An-Nisa), verse 34:
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.— translated by M. H. Shakir
you will notice the inequality attributed to the sexes as well as the permission of domestic violence, yes it exists outside of islamic communities, but here there is a pretext for it in a so called holy book!
and some others just to make sure
2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."
2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."
2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."
3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."
3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."
3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."
4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
4:74, 75 "Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…"
4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).
5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."
5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war ... he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."
8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."
8:65 "O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding."
9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."
9:14 "Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame ..."
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."
61:4 "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."
regards robbie.
15 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCan you fill out the dots , or the source you copied this sub-verses didn't include them? This is the 3rd time I see the same style of cuting of verses. Talking things out of their context. I bad for of brain-washing.
naturally you cannot find any pretext for violence in the teachings of Christ, therefore you must attack something else that Christians hold to be sacred, the bible, i do not blame you it was an impossible task and quite predictable, however of necessity we must take your silence as admittance that there is no pretext for violence within the teaching ...[text shortened]... ere a solid cemented structure."
regards robbie.
When you want to present something do it complete or do not do it at all!!!!
when you talked about equity between man and woman:
You referred to the verse:
The Qur'an, chapter 4 (An-Nisa), verse 34:
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.— translated by M. H. Shakir
I will not go through this again and again. I did explain this at least 4 times in this site, and some still use their incomplete understanding to interpret Quran as they want to read it. Which is very stupid.
When you want to learn about Islam don't use christian sites. They are very stupid, and they don't know what they are talking about. they just want to blind you the poor christian about the truth.
If you want to know what know what Islam give to the woman, you will find many resources. Did the site you copied this matrial from told you about this verse:
[35] Verily, the Muslims (those who submit to Allâh in Islâm) men and women, the believers men and women (who believe in Islâmic Monotheism), the men and the women who are obedient (to Allâh), the men and women who are truthful (in their speech and deeds), the men and the women who are patient (in performing all the duties which Allâh has ordered and in abstaining from all that Allâh has forbidden), the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord - Allâh), the men and the women who give Sadaqât (i.e. Zakât, and alms), the men and the women who observe Saum (fast) (the obligatory fasting during the month of Ramadân, and the optional Nawâfil fasting), the men and the women who guard their chastity (from illegal sexual acts) and the men and the women who remember Allâh much with their hearts and tongues Allâh has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).
This verse demonstrate the equity that I understand.
Men and Women are equal in the face of Allah. The verse you used takes about something different.
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Islam is the only truth on earth. It is the religion of Jesus, Moses and Ibrahim. It is the believe in Allah the creator, the only one who deserve worship.
Jesus in both Quran and the Bible is a man, and a messenger from GOD to Jews.
Christianity is a pagan religion copied from many pagan religions (Greek and roman ones). Jesus didn't die for you, actually he didn't die at all. This idea was created by a man called Paul who never met Jesus, and said about himself that he lies to glorify GOD, and still many Christians believe in his lies.
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The claim that Islam is the religion of violence is just a claim made by many to brain wash you. To make accept killing of many Muslims every where around the world in the name of civilization that Islam will destroy.
There is no country today invaded by Muslims. Although there are at least three Muslim countries under occupation. And some still claim that Islam is the religion of violence.
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It is not important to love Islam or hate it, love Muslims or hate them, believe in Allah or not, it is more important to be sure of what you believe, because you only have one life, if you spend it in the wrong path there is no return back. So please don't copy and paste.
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Again there is no Islamic teaching that support the act of this thread. Actually this is a crime in Islamic law, and who ever did that should be punished under the Islamic law.
Not because who ever did that claim to be a Muslim, it means that Islam support what he did. If any one claim that then he is wants to fool himself.
Also the culture is a proof of anything. Islam when first started was refused by many because simply it was against what the culture say at that time.
For example , the culture at that time was considering slave like animals, and their owner has full control on their life. Islam came with the equity, and freedom for slaves. When the prophet said that the master and the slave are equal in the face of Allah, people of Mecca didn't accept him. Refused him, sent him out of his land.
So the culture doesn't mean anything as long as it is not supported by a solid proof from Quran or Hadith.
So if the culture allows a father to kill his daughter if he suspect her, he is a murderer in Islamic law and should be punished.
So this thread doesn't mean anything except a sick heart want to express his illness.
15 Nov 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyWell Mr peace loving sir, explain this:
Can you fill out the dots , or the source you copied this sub-verses didn't include them? This is the 3rd time I see the same style of cuting of verses. Talking things out of their context. I bad for of brain-washing.
When you want to present something do it complete or do not do it at all!!!!
when you talked about equity between man and woman:
You ...[text shortened]...
So this thread doesn't mean anything except a sick heart want to express his illness.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24886
15 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by sonhouseI live in Canada, and In Canada you are not allowed to Marry more than one wife. Does this mean Canada oppress Muslims. No , not at all. It means that it is a country with a law. And who ever want to live in this county has to respect its law, other wise , simply don't live there. It is a declared law, not a hidden one. So who ever chooses to live in Saudi Araibia and work there knows this law and accepted it. Other wise no one force him to go and live there. And if Canada or any other country forbid me from performing my worship I will not simply live there. And I think France already have a law like that (And I think France is not a Muslim country or even Christian)
Well Mr peace loving sir, explain this:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24886
Talking about Egypt , I'm from Egypt, and I know the situation in Egypt.
I know that the richest people in Egypt are chrstians. I know the Minister of finance (the person who controls the money of the whole nation) is Christian. I know that I muslim friend of mine loved a christian girl, and married her, and then she converted to Islam, and her family shoot him in the street, and he spent the reminder of his life on a wheel chair under the police supervision. And I know another family in which the wife was a christian and converted and her family killed her husband and her 1 years old baby. Also about monks in a monastery in the desert who tried to expand their monastery by the extortion of the lands of Muslims, and where they refused they faught them and a Muslim man was killed. And after that the monks came to the media screaming from oppression, that led to the killing of the Muslim man ( and you have to ask yourself where the weapons came from , and what were they doing inside the monastery).
I know that if there is a problem between a Muslim and a Christian, the Muslim will go in jail for weeks without any investigation, and the Christian will be released because the government is so afraid that they do what is written in that article.
Christians in Egypt are liars, who claim to be oppressed while they are controlling the most financial institutions in the country and their church is a forbidden areas for the authorities.
the story in that article is so sad, but I can't believe it did happen, simply because I know that Christians in Egypt are liars. If you want to believe it did happen it is up to you.
I don't think the site you used will ever talk about wafaa constantine who was a wife of a monk and converted to Islam. The christians refused that and demonstrated every where, and the government simply gave her to them. And since then no knows anything about her. She disappeared she and her family. many Muslims believe she was killed but the church so far claim that she is still a life but refuses to show her out to people.
Search this name yourself wafaa constantine, and judge it yourself.
And you still want to brain-wash yourself.
15 Nov 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyHey Ahosyney pal,
I live in Canada, and In Canada you are not allowed to Marry more than one wife. Does this mean Canada oppress Muslims. No , not at all. It means that it is a country with a law. And who ever want to live in this county has to respect its law, other wise , simply don't live there. It is a declared law, not a hidden one. So who ever chooses to live in Saudi ...[text shortened]... afaa constantine, and judge it yourself.
And you still want to brain-wash yourself.[/b]
while you enjoy your conversation with robbie concerning religious issues regarding these two Abrahamic religions, Islam and Christianity, lets get a bit real and back in track;
What do you think of the Nigerian women and girls that still end up stoned to death by Muslims?
Do you agree with the reaction of the Muslims against Denmark everywhere after the incident of Feb. 2006 regarding the drawing cartoons published by Jyllands-Posten?
What do you think about the circumstances under which Van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdamn?