23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkYes, man wasn't the first to flub it up, but at the end of creation it
It doesn't matter if I wanted it all to be different. It isn't. I can't change the way the universe works. Hmmm, now who could have done that? Ah yes, god.
But since you take the all good/powerful/knowing god as a [b]premise, you have to argue (with hilarious consequences) that this world could have been the best of all possible worlds, if man hadn't flubbed it up.[/b]
was stated that it was very good. Then things changed.
Kelly
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by KellyJay
"Yes, man wasn't the first to flub it up, but at the end of creation it
was stated that it was very good. Then things changed."
Kelly
It seems to me that you have failed to give a coherent account of how suffering can be reconciled with this notion of god.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkMy first post gave you a reason.
Originally posted by KellyJay
"Yes, man wasn't the first to flub it up, but at the end of creation it
was stated that it was very good. Then things changed."
Kelly
It seems to me that you have failed to give a coherent account of how suffering can be reconciled with this notion of god.
Kelly
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999Isaiah 45:7 might come close, though—
I could never understand the need for people to believe and convince others about God's attributes which are vauge or not clear in the Bible. Or even those which are stated but somehow the facts of the Bible need to be re-interpreted for us to understand it. Eg .. God is love, is clearly not a statement that people can appreciate given the bloody /violent na ...[text shortened]... was some suffering caused before all were dead. Hence God caused the suffering of those people.
KJV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
NJB Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NIV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
NAU Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
NRS Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by vistesdExcellent. So God does in fact cause suffering like I said, contrary to what many religious nutcases would like to think.
Isaiah 45:7 might come close, though—
KJV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
NJB Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NIV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darknes ...[text shortened]... :7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
There is in fact another verse that says something like ... " .. is there an evil on the street which I have not done..?" Cant find it now.
Galveston quoted :James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man ..
This verse contradicts what clearly happened to Pharoah, who was softening up and leaning towards letting the Jews go free. But then God hardened his heart. Definitely God placed temptation in his way. Probably God made him think of the great loss to his building work if the Jews were to leave. But there was interference from God.
Again in Job, God gave Satan permission to do as he pleased with Job. Another clear case of God being part and parcel of the temptation process.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999no this is an erroneous assertion, for it was Pharaohs own heart that led to his obstinacy and his subsequent downfall, had he humbled himself, the outcome would have been quite different.
Excellent. So God does in fact cause suffering like I said, contrary to what many religious nutcases would like to think.
There is in fact another verse that says something like ... " .. is there an evil on the street which I have not done..?" Cant find it now.
Galveston quoted :James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God ...[text shortened]... e pleased with Job. Another clear case of God being part and parcel of the temptation process.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf you open your mind and read the Bible without the crooked arrogant bias of the Jehovah Witness, and humble yourself, then the outcome will be quite different .. 😀
no this is an erroneous assertion, for it was Pharaohs own heart that led to his obstinacy and his subsequent downfall, had he humbled himself, the outcome would have been quite different.
Here is the passage, which fortunately cannot be twisted :
Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might show these my signs before him:
2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
God hardened his heart for the purpose of demonstrating His power so that all subsequent generations will hear of the miracles. Get it? That means an outcome in which Pharoah was humble and allowed the Jews to go free before the miracles were done, was not part of Gods plan.
23 Jun 09
KJV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
((((NJB Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NIV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
NAU Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
NRS Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.))))
Of course God make evil or cause suffering. This scripture is speaking about a specific time and circumstance when he was punishing a pagen nation. Isiah is speaking of such a time.
You guys can't just take a scripture out of the Bible to make a silly answer fit to the subect at hand. Read the surrounding scriptures to see what is being said...
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999No because some suffering is caused by outside of ourselves. Others ect. Acts of God if you will. I think some over spiritualize (don't know if that was even a word) everything as from the hand of God. if a coconut falls from a tree and hits a guy on the head and kills him is that God?
So you are saying that all our suffering result from choices we make ?
Manny
23 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75When you ask, "Does God cause suffering", do you mean specific instances of suffering, suffering in general, or something else?
KJV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
((((NJB Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NIV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, answer fit to the subect at hand. Read the surrounding scriptures to see what is being said...
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999The book of Job would be a good example of God allowing suffering.
Excellent. So God does in fact cause suffering like I said, contrary to what many religious nutcases would like to think.
There is in fact another verse that says something like ... " .. is there an evil on the street which I have not done..?" Cant find it now.
Galveston quoted :James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God ...[text shortened]... e pleased with Job. Another clear case of God being part and parcel of the temptation process.
Manny
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by menace71Yes.
No because some suffering is caused by outside of ourselves. Others ect. Acts of God if you will. I think some over spiritualize (don't know if that was even a word) everything as from the hand of God. if a coconut falls from a tree and hits a guy on the head and kills him is that God?
Manny