Star of Bethlehem ??

Originally posted by divegeester
I think the essence of what myself and Menace are disagreeing with you on is that you believe the wise men were led by satan through the forbidden act of astrology and we believe they were led by God through signs in the heavens.

I think what he is trying to point out is that astrology is false and there are no lions or tigers pictured in the heavens. It is only speculation that these wise men were astrologers anyway. The obvious conclusion is that the appearance and disappearance and movement of this star is a miracle and not conjunctions of planets, etc.

Originally posted by divegeester
I think the essence of what myself and Menace are disagreeing with you on is that you believe the wise men were led by satan through the forbidden act of astrology and we believe they were led by God through signs in the heavens.

I'm in a good mood so let me try this again...


Ok no where did I say the Magi wanted Jesus dead and I did not even imply that.
I clearly said it was Herod that wanted him dead and in the big picture it was satan that wanted him dead. Hence this is where the star or light came into play. It lead them originally to Herod and then back to Jesus as a young child.
Out of fear of Herod and their respect for Jesus, they did not go back to Herod and tell him where they found Jesus.
Again....the star was not from God as it was designed to lead to his son's death if the Magi had done as Herod wanted.

Originally posted by galveston75
I'm in a good mood so let me try this again...


Ok no where did I say the Magi wanted Jesus dead and I did not even imply that.
I clearly said it was Herod that wanted him dead and in the big picture it was satan that wanted him dead. Hence this is where the star or light came into play. It lead them originally to Herod and then back to Jesus as a ...[text shortened]... not from God as it was designed to lead to his son's death if the Magi had done as Herod wanted.

I understand that is what you believe, I'm saying that is not what I believe and from his posts not what Manny believes either.

My understanding of you are saying is:
- The star was sent by satan
- the magi were using astrology
- they were manipulated by satan in order to help Herod find the child

What i believe scripture says:
- God controls the heavens and sends signs to inform watchers, not satan. There is no evidence in biblical scripture of satan controlling the heavens or the signs in it
- looking for signs in the heavens is not astrology. In fact the bible instructs us to do so. The video clip actually dealt with this issue - did you watch the video?
- the Magi were sent by God, they worshiped the child and brought him significant gifts. Gold representing his kingship, Frankinsence representing his priesthood and Myrrh representing his death.

These are my contentions with your position. Did you watch the video?

Originally posted by divegeester
I understand that is what you believe, I'm saying that is not what I believe and from his posts not what Manny believes either.

My understanding of you are saying is:
- The star was sent by satan
- the magi were using astrology
- they were manipulated by satan in order to help Herod find the child

What i believe scripture says:
- God controls ...[text shortened]... representing his death.

These are my contentions with your position. Did you watch the video?

You can believe as you see it.

But you say the star was sent by God? The bible does not say this anywhere.
So you'll say it doesn't say that satan sent it either. Ok. But the point you and Manny are ignoring is where this star lead those Magi. If it were from God it would have lead them directly to Jesus, not to Herod who God knew wanted to kill his son.
Herod wanted Jesus dead and satan knew this. What better situation could there be for satan to use a human, Herod, to kill Jesus.
Even the Magi understood this and wanted nothing to do with it. They even hid for awhile in fear of Herod and even after they left Jesus, they fled away from Herod and did not report their findings as he wanted.
So you guys can believe as you want, and you will I'm sure of that, but the proof is in your own bible as the facts are clear about this star.
Yes you say God controls the heavens. This was obviously not a star millions of miles away. It was a light that could easily been in the lower atmosphere that satan made seen by the Magi, and a very important fact is there is not one mention of anyone else seeing this star or light other then the Magi. If it were a star in the higher heavens, all would have seen it.
If the star was from God and was to be seen as an announcement that God's son had been born, why did only the Magi see it?
Anyway the Bible is clear on this light. It was only put there to have the end result of having Jesus killed by Herod.

Originally posted by galveston75
You can believe as you see it.

But you say the star was sent by God? The bible does not say this anywhere.
So you'll say it doesn't say that satan sent it either. Ok. But the point you and Manny are ignoring is where this star lead those Magi. If it were from God it would have lead them directly to Jesus, not to Herod who God knew wanted to kill hi ...[text shortened]... ear on this light. It was only put there to have the end result of having Jesus killed by Herod.

The biblical text does not say this miracle star was leading the Magi to King Herod the Great. The star had disappeared while the Magi were on their way to Jerusalem. They only stopped by King Herod in hopes of getting directions to the new borned King. It was not until they got to Bethlehem that the miracle star reappeared to guide them to Jesus.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The biblical text does not say this miracle star was leading the Magi to King Herod the Great. The star had disappeared while the Magi were on their way to Jerusalem. They only stopped by King Herod in hopes of getting directions to the new borned King. It was not until they got to Bethlehem that the miracle star reappeared to guide them to Jesus.

Again the Bible never says this star was from God.
Also these Magi or astrologers were not brought or summond by God.
God disapproves of astrology and would not be interested in these men at all for any reason.
These Magi and only the Magi saw this star first in the eastern sky and then followed it to Jerusalem as it did move from the eastern sky towards the western sky.
Now later this star lead them back to Jesus, correct? If this were from God and God knew what Herod had said to them and knew what the motives of Herod were, why would God had lead these Magi on to Jesus?

Originally posted by galveston75
Again the Bible never says this star was from God.
Also these Magi or astrologers were not brought or summond by God.
God disapproves of astrology and would not be interested in these men at all for any reason.
These Magi and only the Magi saw this star first in the eastern sky and then followed it to Jerusalem as it did move from the eastern sky ...[text shortened]... to them and knew what the motives of Herod were, why would God had lead these Magi on to Jesus?

So that they could bring the gifts.

Originally posted by galveston75
You can believe as you see it.

But you say the star was sent by God? The bible does not say this anywhere.
So you'll say it doesn't say that satan sent it either. Ok. But the point you and Manny are ignoring is where this star lead those Magi. If it were from God it would have lead them directly to Jesus, not to Herod who God knew wanted to kill hi ...[text shortened]... ear on this light. It was only put there to have the end result of having Jesus killed by Herod.

Did you watch the video?

Originally posted by galveston75
You can believe as you see it.

But you say the star was sent by God? The bible does not say this anywhere.
So you'll say it doesn't say that satan sent it either. Ok. But the point you and Manny are ignoring is where this star lead those Magi. If it were from God it would have lead them directly to Jesus, not to Herod who God knew wanted to kill hi ...[text shortened]... ear on this light. It was only put there to have the end result of having Jesus killed by Herod.

Galveston, you will believe whatever your governing body tell you to believe.

Your JW viewpoint is based solely on conjecture and assumption.
Assumptions:
- the Star was not a star it was a light low in sky (this is not even scriptural as the Bible says it was a star)
- the star/light was sent by satan
- the magi were astrologers

The bible says that the magi worshiped the child Jesus. How do you account for that?

Originally posted by divegeester
Galveston, you will believe whatever your governing body tell you to believe.

Your JW viewpoint is based solely on conjecture and assumption.
Assumptions:
- the Star was not a star it was a light low in sky (this is not even scriptural as the Bible says it was a star)
- the star/light was sent by satan
- the magi were astrologers

The bible says that the magi worshiped the child Jesus. How do you account for that?

Lol....here you go again. I believe what the bible says. You have your belief and that is fine for you.
And account for what? Yes they worshipped the baby Jesus. I never said they didn't.......
Read what I say not what you think up and which video are you speaking about? Many have been posted here..

Originally posted by divegeester
Galveston, you will believe whatever your governing body tell you to believe.

Your JW viewpoint is based solely on conjecture and assumption.
Assumptions:
- the Star was not a star it was a light low in sky (this is not even scriptural as the Bible says it was a star)
- the star/light was sent by satan
- the magi were astrologers

The bible says that the magi worshiped the child Jesus. How do you account for that?

They also believe it is a sin to worship Jesus.

Originally posted by RJHinds
They also believe it is a sin to worship Jesus.

Yep. Jesus told humans to not worship him.

Matthew 4:8-10
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written,

‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

Jesus said to worship God alone. He never said to worship him and in fact stopped ones from doing so. He also never said that someday in the future that would change and then he, Jesus, would be worshipped.

Originally posted by galveston75
Yep. Jesus told humans to not worship him.

Matthew 4:8-10
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it i ...[text shortened]... never said that someday in the future that would change and then he, Jesus, would be worshipped.

I already knew I was right on that. However, the apostle Paul wrote the following:

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


(Philippians 2:8-11 NKJV)

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol....here you go again. I believe what the bible says. You have your belief and that is fine for you.
And account for what? Yes they worshipped the baby Jesus. I never said they didn't.......
Read what I say not what you think up and which video are you speaking about? Many have been posted here..

I think you know very well that I'm referring to the video link posted by Manny in the 2nd post of this thread.

Did you view it Galveston, so you can gain from fresh insight?

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol....here you go again. I believe what the bible says. You have your belief and that is fine for you.
And account for what? Yes they worshipped the baby Jesus. I never said they didn't.......
Read what I say not what you think up and which video are you speaking about? Many have been posted here..

"lol lol lol" That's your mocking style coming through again when challenged Galveston, it's not edifying.

The scripture is very clear in supporting the conventional Christian view of the star and the magi. I say again:

They saw a sign in the heavens. We are instructed to look for signs in scripture. You are wrong to suggest (no evidence) that the magi were using astrology and looking for signs is not astrology. Astrology is allowing the constellations, starts and planets to control your life.

They worshiped the child Jesus. According to you Jesus is "mighty God" as stated in Isaiah 9, so I see know reason why you would have an issue with this.

The magi brought prophetic gifts; gold representing his kingship, Frankinsence representing his priesthood and myrrh representing his death. Clearly this gifts were divinely inspired.

God divinely intervened warning them on a dream not to return to Herod. They obeyed this warning.

This is the evidence and it is overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view. The evidence you provide for your position is non existent, instead you propose conjecture and assumption.