02 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI add your three questions to mine.
I hope you have better luck getting answers to that one than I have in the past on this forum.
My big questions are:
1. If you go insane an hour before death, does your insane self get to heaven? Or: If you loose all your memory in old age, will you regain it in heaven.
2. If your memories, general mental characteristics etc are not carried over to h ...[text shortened]... ven?
3. If you could send yourself as you were 10 or 20 years ago to heaven, would you do it?
And now I’m going to wait to see who else shows up, ‘cause among the guys that have so far, there’s likely to be little more than a quibble...
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadHow about a children 2 years old?
I hope you have better luck getting answers to that one than I have in the past on this forum.
My big questions are:
1. If you go insane an hour before death, does your insane self get to heaven? Or: If you loose all your memory in old age, will you regain it in heaven.
2. If your memories, general mental characteristics etc are not carried over to h ...[text shortened]... ven?
3. If you could send yourself as you were 10 or 20 years ago to heaven, would you do it?
Souls associated to our mind and memories don't make sense... Too much incoherences, the main reason is : Mind and body are ONE.
If souls aren't associated to our memories, then we won't have memory of what happened when we lived. So what's the point of the whole thing? We are what our memories are.
02 Oct 07
I have a feeling that most people define their "self" in a way that is not unlike drawing a tangent at a given point of a function. They project their current state forward and backwards in time.
Imagine the "self" as an evolving function defined in the interval of (birth, death). This is not exactly a function because the process (evolution of the 'self'😉 itself is somewhat stochastic (i.e. has some degree of randomness), but let's go along with the function for simplicity sake.
Many people see their self as the current state (i.e. the point where they are now) and project it both forward and backward. They do not see their younger 'selves' as their 'Self' (capitalized), nor do they foresee their Self evolving in a different direction than it is evolving at that moment (thus taking the derivative).
Just some random thoughts.
02 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Palynka😀
Just some random thoughts.
That was funny, after the talk about stochasticity
I agree with you. Only the present matters for defining the self. The rest is extrapolation.
The derivate of a stochastic function -> now that's something worth thinking 🙂
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by vistesdYour name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
When people talk about the soul, or the self, that has eternal life what do they mean? That is—[b]specifically—what is the content of that soul/self? If the soul/self represents some individualized essence, what exactly is the content of that essence?
For example—
Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?) ...[text shortened]... b] of the individual “I” that people (self-referentially) speak about in terms of an after-life?[/b]
No. Only God knows your true name, despite what people--- including you--- have called you throughout your life on this planet.
Your memories?
You retain your memories.
Your personality traits?
Our personalities are simply how we relate to one another.
Your emotions?
Absolutely. What a kick that will be!
Your thoughts?
Yes.
Your will?
Emphatically.
Your sense perceptions?
Although we will have different structured bodies, I assume many of the sense perceptions will be similar.
Similarly, by what aspects will they be able to recognize anyone else—if they will?
We will be recognizable by anyone who knew us before. Just as our physical traits now make us immediately known to those who know us, so do our other personality traits make us known without physical immediacy. For instance, on this website, when we see a cut-and-paste from some Vatican source, we immediately think we're dealing with________. Or, if someone posts some mystical, esoteric-but-heavily-footnoted musings, we know we're hearing from __________. The point is, the truth always comes out, whether we want it to or not. If any of the two people cited above felt a bit mischievious and decided to adopt a secondary nom de plume, it would only be a matter of time before their true identities were made known by their own hands. In the same way, our personalities will make us known in the afterlife.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHDoes all that information come in the Bible? How do you know anything about that with such certainty? Or is it just an opinion?
[b]Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
No. Only God knows your true name, despite what people--- including you--- have called you throughout your life on this planet.
Your memories?
You retain your memories.
Your personality traits?
Our personalities are simply how we relate to one anothe ...[text shortened]... n by their own hands. In the same way, our personalities will make us known in the afterlife.[/b]
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by serigadoDoes all that information come in the Bible?
Does all that information come in the Bible? How do you know anything about that with such certainty? Or is it just an opinion?
Yes. Although what you call 'information,' I call truth.
How do you know anything about that with such certainty?
Because its source has been tested, tried and shown to be true.
Or is it just an opinion?
See response number one. I am certain it will answer your question.
02 Oct 07
Seems to me that FreakyKBH and Sergadio represent the two sides of the coin:
1. There is no soul, we are complex systems that achieve individuality through the interaction between the self and the environment.
2. God is great, he makes the chocolate cake (the typical void of logic religious answer).
Alan Turing developed the Turing test to prove if AI existed. We've come a long way since then and I do think we are well on our way to realizing AI.
However, there's no much debate over whether AI will ever be equal to NI (Natural Intelligence).
I think Einstein summed it up nicely with, "Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid. Human beings are incredibly slow, inaccurate, and brilliant. Together they are powerful beyond imagination."
I agree with Sergadio that we do lack the technology and science to truly explore the sum of a Human; however, I suspect the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.
Like early Psychologists fighting over Nature vs. Nurture, the question of why we are the way we are is certainly a combination of Environment and Genetics.
I think there is a good chance that although a soul certainly does exist, it may not exist outside a physical body. It may be tied to the physical as closely as the physical is tied to the emotional/spiritual parts of a being.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWe disagree... The Bible has been shown to be wrong too many times.
[b]Does all that information come in the Bible?
Yes. Although what you call 'information,' I call truth.
How do you know anything about that with such certainty?
Because its source has been tested, tried and shown to be true.
Or is it just an opinion?
See response number one. I am certain it will answer your question.[/b]
If people's memories go to heaven, and the soul is the sum of people memories, experiences, etc, how would the mind of a mad man, or alzheimer guy be like?
How about a 2 year child who died? How about people with no memories?
Mind has been shown to be associated with the body. You can't separate both. Mind is explained physically. How can you separate them? Do you know something about neurology, or you treat the same way as evolucionism and big bang?
From where do the souls come from? When do they form? Is the number of souls constant?
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhat you call truth I call fear.
[b]Does all that information come in the Bible?
Yes. Although what you call 'information,' I call truth.[/b]
Let go of your fear of death/mortality and you won't have any need for fairy tales. Accept your nature and your station.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by serigadoThe Bible has been shown to be wrong too many times.
We disagree... The Bible has been shown to be wrong too many times.
If people's memories go to heaven, and the soul is the sum of people memories, experiences, etc, how would the mind of a mad man, or alzheimer guy be like?
How about a 2 year child who died? How about people with no memories?
Mind has been shown to be associated with the body. You can't ...[text shortened]... ang?
From where do the souls come from? When do they form? Is the number of souls constant?
At least one person (you) is convinced of that. I believe your threshold for bull feces is set too low. The critical thinking you think you are applying needs to be focused on the real culprit.
... how would the mind of a mad man, or alzheimer guy be like?
Restored and relieved of ravages.
How about a 2 year child who died?
Clean slate, it is assumed.
How about people with no memories?
Please see above response (or, simply remember it).
Mind has been shown to be associated with the body.
How so?
You can't separate both.
Can you separate either?
Mind is explained physically.
Actually, the work of the mind can be explained using physical terms; the impetus of the mind cannot. In other words, when the mind is contemplating something the self associates with fear, it is possible to see/measure the results of the such contemplation. Beyond that, the mind cannot be explained.
Do you know something about neurology...
Is this a riddle?
From where do the souls come from?
God.
When do they form?
At birth, they spring forth fully formed with the newborn child.
Is the number of souls constant?
As constant as the birth rate.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by mdhallWhat you call truth I call fear.
What you call truth I call fear.
Let go of your fear of death/mortality and you won't have any need for fairy tales. Accept your nature and your station.
That's because you're using the wrong glasses. There is no fear in love.
Let go of your fear of death/mortality and you won't have any need for fairy tales.
Done and done.
Accept your nature and your station.
Repeat above response.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe system is very well made and impossible to refute, I must admit.
[b]The Bible has been shown to be wrong too many times.
At least one person (you) is convinced of that. I believe your threshold for bull feces is set too low. The critical thinking you think you are applying needs to be focused on the real culprit.
... how would the mind of a mad man, or alzheimer guy be like?
Restored and relieve ...[text shortened]... h the newborn child.
Is the number of souls constant?
As constant as the birth rate.[/b]
It's all about faith and believing the Bible to be true, to a final instance.
Would you bet your life the Bible is 100% true?
I understand if you believe in an abstract god, the afterlife or anything else... but does it have to be the Bible? Do you really believe earth is 6k yrs old, man descended from adam and eve, and creation in 6 days? Would you bet your life and eternity this is true? Just because it comes in an old Book, made by men, that suffered so many alterations, translations and interpretations?
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWell, I meant “personality” a bit more broadly—to include, for example, tastes and desires.
[b]Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
No. Only God knows your true name, despite what people--- including you--- have called you throughout your life on this planet.
Your memories?
You retain your memories.
Your personality traits?
Our personalities are simply how we relate to one anothe ...[text shortened]... n by their own hands. In the same way, our personalities will make us known in the afterlife.[/b]
Nevertheless, your response seems to say that (except for name—which really was a ringer) it is your ego-self-construct that survives in its entirety. Basically, everything that you have made of yourself and your life.
What about the process that lies behind that constructed ego-self, that generates all that content? (Which is what I would call the “essential self”, although I really mean a verb and not a noun.) Or, to put it another way, will that creative process continue to make new thoughts and self-conceptualizations? Will the ego-self continue to grow and change? (This was once Palynka’s question, I believe.)
Side questions: Will retained memories include painful ones? Will emotional content include the full range (e.g., anger, fear)?
Your position seems very close to that of existentialist and Roman Catholic philosopher Miguel de Unamuno, who said that it was his whole “I” that he wanted to live forever, not just some underlying essential soul/self.
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by serigadoWould you bet your life the Bible is 100% true?
The system is very well made and impossible to refute, I must admit.
It's all about faith and believing the Bible to be true, to a final instance.
Would you bet your life the Bible is 100% true?
I understand if you believe in an abstract god, the afterlife or anything else... but does it have to be the Bible? Do you really believe earth is 6k yrs old, ma ...[text shortened]... an old Book, made by men, that suffered so many alterations, translations and interpretations?
So far!
I understand if you believe in an abstract god, the afterlife or anything else... but does it have to be the Bible?
No, but the Bible is the best explanation that I have found, to date.
Do you really believe earth is 6k yrs old...
Who do I look like, Ussher?
... man descended from adam and eve...
Yes.
... and creation in 6 days?
More like re-creation, but yes, six days.
Would you bet your life and eternity this is true?
All the way up to and including right now, yes.
Just because it comes in an old Book, made by men, that suffered so many alterations, translations and interpretations?
No, in spite of the fact that man was a conduit and because it has remained virtually as written... in complete contradiction to what could have happened to it over all these several thousand years.