Originally posted by checkbaiterAs you well know, believing with your mouth is condemned by everyone in the Bible- God, Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter, James, John, and all the prophets, David, Solomon .. everybody. So IF you missed the warning about mouth worship and hypocritical belief then you have no excuse.
What is his first commandment? Receive him.
[b]Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Acts 16:29-32
Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, ...[text shortened]... ion. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV
[/b]
Belief is in the heart and your own references explain how it leads to righteousness.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
.. the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV)
Checkbaiter's response was good. He is speaking of the opposing enemies to the Gospel who have not obeyed to believe.
Now I would add my own take on this verse. It is well possible that Paul is speaking of TWO distinct catagories of people, indicated by the conjunction "and".
" And to you who are being afflicted, rest, with us at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire. (v.7)
Dealing out vengence to those who do not know God ... *AND* ... to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; (v.8)
It is possible that Paul had in mind two categories:
1.) People who do not know God in even an objective belief in a Creator (See Romans 1)
2.) People who are disobedient to the Gospel to believe in Christ.
I have pointed out before extensively, that in Revelation 14:6-7, at the height of the great tribulation the angels announces from the sky an "eternal gospel" the contents of which is only to fear God the CREATOR.
"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even every nation and tribe and tongue and people. (v.6)
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come, and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." (.7)
I believe that at the time of the closing of this present age which the creation is in turmoil with the natural and supernatural calamities, the proclamation will go out to fear God the Creator as the coming Judge.
There will be on earth at that time:
1.) Those of the nations who heed this eternal gospel and know God.
2.) Those Christians who have obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ but were left to pass through the great tribulation.
Related to the first category, those "who do not know God" will be the followers of Antichrist. And we know that they will be dealt with flaming judgment of eternal punishment (Rev. 14:9-12)
01 Jun 16
Originally posted by sonship[/b]You think eternal life comes from cherrypicking one verse?
Eternal life because of BELIEVING in Christ -
[b] " For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day." (John 6:40)
Read on. You have a long way to go
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01 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999What makes you think God would let one believer in Christ be lost? It would definitely make Him unrighteous. Especially when Jesus said...
.. if he causes one believer in Christ to be lost.
This has to be the most glaring example of Christians abdicating all responsibility for their conduct and actions, and blaming someone else [in this case God] for their failure. Fools dare where angels fear to tread.
Judas Iscariot was lost because of his sins. And their were others like Ananias and ...[text shortened]... sins.
Is this view held by Sonship typical of the Christian community?
Comments welcome.
John 10:28-30
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
NKJV
and this promise...
Phil 1:6-7
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
NKJV
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterThose passages are very simple to explain. Not all who claim to believe in Christ are in the Fathers hand.
What makes you think God would let one believer in Christ be lost? It would definitely make Him unrighteous. Especially when Jesus said...
[b]John 10:28-30
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatc ...[text shortened]... He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
NKJV
[/b]
For those like Sonship, the claim is that once a man professes faith/belief in Christ with his mouth, that person is saved eternally.
From the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, the story is a bit different. In the parable of the Sower and the Seed, Jesus explained that there are FOUR types of believers in Christ, and only ONE of those four categores will get into the Kingdom of God. The other three groups, were NOT in the Fathers hand and Satan was able to steer them away from Christ and toward destruction.
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02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999What do you think Romans 10:9-10 is saying?
Those passages are very simple to explain. Not all who claim to believe in Christ are in the Fathers hand.
For those like Sonship, the claim is that once a man professes faith/belief in Christ with his mouth, that person is saved eternally.
From the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, the story is a bit different. In the parable of the Sower and ...[text shortened]... OT in the Fathers hand and Satan was able to steer them away from Christ and toward destruction.
Rom 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV
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For those like Sonship, the claim is that once a man professes faith/belief in Christ with his mouth, that person is saved eternally.
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You cannot blame on me the apostolic instruction clearly set forth by the New Testament.
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (Rom. 10:9,10)
With the heart there is believing unto .... WHAT ?
With the heart there is believing unto RIGHTEOUSNESS.
With the mouth there is confession unto SALVATION.
What Romans 10:8,9 does not say is that once calling the saved one can NEVER[/b] undergo any discipline or [i]NEVER be chastised by His Father, or NEVER be denied a reward in the coming millennial kingdom or NEVER be perfected through additional correction from light to heavier to severe.
None of these matters are precluded as impossible for God to emply over His sons. But it DOES SAY -
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (Rom. 10:9,10)
Neither does it say - "There is absolutely no other important matter to God than this."
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterSeems like you and sonship see only the part about confessing with your mouth.
What do you think Romans 10:9-10 is saying?
[b]Rom 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV
[/b]
I see the part that says believing with the heart leads to righteousness.
And this is the part that syncs well with the teachings of the rest of the Apostles and with the teachings of Christ, and completes the picture of what eternal life is all about.
If a Christian believes in his heart the things about Christ that Christian is a changed person and he will follow the commandments of Christ.
A Christian that only confesses with his mouth is not a changed person and will not be inclined to follow Christ.
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02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually I see both parts. They are both needed.
Seems like you and sonship see only the part about confessing with your mouth.
I see the part that says believing with the heart leads to righteousness.
And this is the part that syncs well with the teachings of the rest of the Apostles and with the teachings of Christ, and completes the picture of what eternal life is all about.
If a Christian believ ...[text shortened]... only confesses with his mouth is not a changed person and will not be inclined to follow Christ.
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02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999You said I said that, but I did not. I said someone is saved by believing and confessing Romans 10:9-10.
Your doctrine that once a man confesses Christ with his mouth he is saved eternally.
You are the one that keeps bringing out the mouth part.