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20 Mar 10
Originally posted by 667joeThe Church has never said that the earth is flat. Major theologians, such as Ambrose and Boethius, supported the idea that the earth is round.
The Church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by 667joeNo one should trust a church, the church or the Church. Everyone should trust God and His Word, the Bible.
The Church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by rwingettBe patient. Slowly, surely, He's getting through. If He can get through my titanium skull, He can get through anything. Of course, I can't recommend the pain involved to any one, but nothing is impossible as long as there's hope.
I think that's exactly why nothing ever gets fixed.
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by 667joeThe Church believed that the earth was round. The Greeks centuries before had stated that the earth and all the solar system was round. The belief was that the solar system revolved around the Earth. Galileos's hersey was that he beleived that the earth circled the Sun. The church believed the Bible said we were the center of God's creation and therfore every thing revolves around us. The unlettered were the ones who most tended to think the earth was flat.
The Church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by 667joeYou could argue that the Earth is flat AND round. It could be a flat disk - creating the round shadow but still being flat.
The Church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
21 Mar 10
5 edits
Originally posted by 667joeWhen Jesus spoke of His sudden secret rapture of watchful Christians He uttered these words:
The Church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. Ferdinand Magellan
"Whoever seeks to preserve his soul lifue will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.
I tell you, in that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left." (Luke 17:33-36)
This time of rapture is discribed as happening during the daylight working hours when two men would be in the field or two women grinding. And it is also discribed as night hours - " ... in that night there will be two on one bed".
The fact that both daylight circumstances and night time circumstances are mentioned imply that Jesus understood that in one part of the world it would be day and in another part it would be night.
This, I think, would imply a round earth. And watching and vigilant lovers of Jesus would be taken on one side of the earth during the day. But others would be taken at the same moment during the night on the other side of the world.
21 Mar 10
6 edits
Originally posted by jaywillYa but, Luke 17 isn't a reference to the rapture.
When Jesus spoke of His sudden secret rapture of watchful Christians He uttered these words:
[b]"Whoever seeks to preserve his soul lifue will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.
I tell you, in that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding together; the on ut others would be taken at the same moment during the night on the other side of the world.
Unless one is a post tribulationist.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The last part is baffeling to me.
Unless I'm way off base here, it looks to me like the "taking" of individuals occurrs on the day of the Lord, at His second coming.
If one is pretrib, then it may be, as some have said, that the ones being taken are those who had recieved the mark of the beast. They are taken out, while the ones who remain enter the thousand years.
What do you think?
24 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwThis is an interesting observation of yours. I need time to comment on it.
Ya but, Luke 17 isn't a reference to the rapture.
Unless one is a post tribulationist.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wi y are taken out, while the ones who remain enter the thousand years.
What do you think?
Being verbose as I am, I probably will take more than a single post to comment.
24 Mar 10
6 edits
Originally posted by jaywill===================================
This is an interesting observation of yours. I need time to comment on it.
Being verbose as I am, I probably will take more than a single post to comment.
Ya but, Luke 17 isn't a reference to the rapture.
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To relegate the entire chapter 17 to a rapture event may be arguable. But 17:34-36 refers to A rapture.
I consider it secondary as to WHEN it may occur. I consider it primary that it is a warning to deny the old life and live in expectation that Christ may come at any time (17:33).
If you choose to apply it to after the tribulation, it doesn't hurt. If you choose to apply it to before the tribulation, it does no harm. If you choose it to be during the tribulation, it doesn't matter that much.
What does matter is that it is a warning to Christians. They are to live enjoying Christ moment by moment and denying the godless old self centered nature - "Whosever seeks to preserve his soul life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive." (v.33)
Of first importance, to me at least, is that it is a warning appropriate for ANY hour. And it refers to A taking away of watching and ready Christians, REGARDLESS of when we interpret it to occur.
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Unless one is a post tribulationist.
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I don't think it matters that much WHEN it is to occur. It is a rapture and we the disciples of Jesus are warned that it will occur at any time - for some at day, for others at night. And it will occur in the hours of our normal duty filled and mundane day to day lives.
I do not want to be distracted from the main point. It is A rapture. And we Christians are warned to be vigilant about it.
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Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife ...
What do you think?
===================================
I may have lost some of your post. Excuse me. But I will address the matter of the gathering of vultures around the corpse.
"And they answered and said to Him, Where Lord? And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:37)
The question is WHERE are the ones taken to BE taken. Two men will be in a field. One is taken and the other left. But to WHERE is the one taken taken ?
They are taken to the battle of Armageddon. That is where Christ's army is gathered from heaven to defeat the stinking Antichrist of death - the corpse.
He or she is taken to accompany the Lord Jesus in His defeat of Antichrist. Christ with His army from heaven come to earth and physically defeat the Antichrist. Because he or she was watching and ready, he or she is rewarded with the honor of accompanying the Lord Jesus to descend from heaven and crush the stinking corpse of Antichrist and his armies.
Here (Luke 17:37) Christ refers to His faithful and overcoming band of believers as birds of prey - vultures. They are going to descend upon and "eat up" in victorious battle the Antichrist and his armines:
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. ... And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepres of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (See Rev. 19:11-21 for full passage)
Antichrist is the corpse of death. Christ is the chief Vulture. His band of overcomers are rewarded for their vigilance. The ones taken in rapture for their vigilance receive the priviledge of being His accompanying "vultures" to eat up the enemies of God at Armageddon.
It is to that battle that Christ will take the overcoming believers who are watchful when He comes to rapture them.
You may compare this concept with the small victorious army of Gideon in Judges 7:4-14) . A remnant of vigilant Hebrews formed a small army of 300 out of the larger number. And they won a great victory over the Midianites on behalf of the whole nation of Israel.