Religion in Schools

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Go out of my mind!!!!, what on earth are you talking about? That's a little bit 'tabloid' don't you think?

Those of faith can send their child(ren) to a faith school if they so choose.

If they are filthy rich, they can...

The post that was quoted here has been removed

there should be no mandatory religious classes; however depending on the local community and demographics, religious classes should be allowed on a voluntary bases, with no credit given for the class, and the class taught by volunteer staff.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

Sorting by most recent statistics, the top 10 are: Liechtenstein, Iceland, Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Brunei, Morocco, Lebanon, Oman and Algeria.

Five of the ten are Muslim. Two are Christian with strong levels of religious practice. Two have assorted Asian religions with similarl ...[text shortened]... ot agree with Oablo Fajnzylber et. al. The facts are all on the web - you can see for yourself.

Ah, Iceland, where only ten percent of the population attend church services on a regular basis.

Just below your Top Ten, but still in the Top Twenty with murder rates below 1 in 100,000, are such extremely secular European countries as Sweden, Norway, Germany and the Netherlands. All Western European countries are secular by international standards, so it would appear that secular countries have low murder rates and Muslim countries have low murder rates, but that devoutly Christian countries have high murder rates - see Jamaica, Lithuania, Uganda, plenty of Latin American countries, way up at the top of homicide list.

According to the same list you posted, secular Western Europe has the lowest average murder rate of any region, some way below the Muslim Middle East.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

Regarding homicide rates, Oablo Fajnzylber et al., in a study reported in the Journal of Law and Economics (2002), looked at thirty-eight non-African nations and found that the ten with the highest homicide rates were highly religious, with minimal or statistically insignifica ...[text shortened]... all but Ireland and Kuwait were relatively secular nations, with high levels of organic atheism.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/725837

This is the only paper by Fajnzylber published in that journal in 2002 and it makes no mention of religion at all.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Ah, Iceland, where only ten percent of the population attend church services on a regular basis.

Just below your Top Ten, but still in the Top Twenty with murder rates below 1 in 100,000, are such extremely secular European countries as Sweden, Norway, Germany and the Netherlands. All Western European countries are secular by international standards, so ...[text shortened]... Europe has the lowest average murder rate of any region, some way below the Muslim Middle East.

Which just shows that there may not be a strong correlation (positive or negative) between secularity and crime rates. Your original post said that secular Western countries have the lowest crime rates in the world; they do, but not unambiguously so. I said that Muslim countries have among the lowest; they do, but not unambiguously so. Basically, if one wants to avoid getting killed, live in an atheist or Muslim country.

My hypothesis would be that homicide rates have more to do with prosperity and social equality than with religion per se. We can go round and round in circles about the religion angle but that would just be trying to force the evidence to say something it does not.

BTW, many of the Western secular nations' statistics cited did not include attempts. I am not sure what that means and hence, whether Muslim countries' statistics did include attempts; if the latter did then a like-for-like comparison will further skew the stats against secular nations.

EDIT: Presumably the Vatican has a zero homicide rate (and no one will speak about the attempts...) though it wasn't on the list... 😉

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Which just shows that there may not be a strong correlation (positive or negative) between secularity and crime rates. Your original post said that secular Western countries have the lowest crime rates in the world; they do, but not unambiguously so. I said that Muslim countries have among the lowest; they do, but not unambiguously so. Basically, if o ...[text shortened]... atter did then a like-for-like comparison will further skew the stats against secular nations.

Well said. In such multi-dimensional phenomena it's usually misleading to look at simple statistics as they can easily be over-interpreted.

But in the last paragraph the issue is even more complicated because reported crime rates also depend on how well the legal system works.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Your original post said that secular Western countries have the lowest crime rates in the world; they do, but not unambiguously so. I said that Muslim countries have among the lowest; they do, but not unambiguously so.

Actually it didn't, although looking back at my original post, I see how you read it that way. My intention was to suggest that among Western countries, the most secular have the least criminality (ie, there's more crime in more religious Western countries like the US than in less religious Western countries like Sweden). The situation is different in developing countries. However, when I looked for statistics to back up the claim, they included 38 countries from all over the world except sub-Saharan Africa, so I then posted those stats. Now that you've cast doubt on the original study cited, I'll go back and check the facts again - although possibly not right now as deadlines approach.

And actually, the article I cited agrees with you that secularism is not the cause of low crime rates. Rather it suggests that falling crime rates and secularism are both consequences of growing prosperity. But it argues that low crime rates in secular countries demonstrate, at least, that society does not collapse in the absence of religion.

Originally posted by Palynka
http://www.jstor.org/stable/725837

This is the only paper by Fajnzylber published in that journal in 2002 and it makes no mention of religion at all.

Incidentally, the original source didn't say "published" in that journal. It said "reported" in that journal. It may have been reported in the body of some else's paper.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Which just shows that there may not be a strong correlation (positive or negative) between secularity and crime rates. Your original post said that secular Western countries have the lowest crime rates in the world; they do, but not unambiguously so. I said that Muslim countries have among the lowest; they do, but not unambiguously so. Basically, if o omicide rate (and no one will speak about the attempts...) though it wasn't on the list... 😉

Lies!! EVeryone knows religion is the source of all evil in the universe......not that evil exists that is. 😛

My goodness, look at all this consensus on moral issues. Everyone is against theft and violence, etc. If you ask me, its just a coincidence we all agree.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Incidentally, the original source didn't say "published" in that journal. It said "reported" in that journal. It may have been reported in the body of some else's paper.

Are you joking? 😕

Originally posted by Palynka
http://www.jstor.org/stable/725837

This is the only paper by Fajnzylber published in that journal in 2002 and it makes no mention of religion at all.

Perhaps the standard for research for the society of secular humanists is substantially less than any journals listed on jstore.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Sorry I've come a bit late onto the thread and haven't had a chance to read others' responses, but I don't agree - despite the fact that I'm a raving atheist.
I believe that parents should be able to decide whether their children receive religious education, but I'm more than happy to have religious education offered as an option in state funded education.
In my own case, my children both attend a public school which offers religious education as an elective subject. And - shock, horror - I'm happy for them to attend. I was raised with religious education and came into my atheism later. I was also raised in a society that is overtly christian in its basis and I'm happy for my kids to learn about this, and challenge me over my beliefs to boot.

Originally posted by amannion
Sorry I've come a bit late onto the thread and haven't had a chance to read others' responses, but I don't agree - despite the fact that I'm a raving atheist.
I believe that parents should be able to decide whether their children receive religious education, but I'm more than happy to have religious education offered as an option in state funded education ...[text shortened]... and I'm happy for my kids to learn about this, and challenge me over my beliefs to boot.

Good for you.
Honest inquiry will always yield to truth.
See you on the other side.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Good for you.
Honest inquiry will always yield to truth.
See you on the other side.

Thanks, but of course there won't be another side - at least not for me. The only place I can see you is here and now ...

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, for practical reasons, that's just not feasible. Anyway, comparative religious studies is quite common, at least in Australia.

If it's quite common then why is it not feasible? Indeed, comparative religious studies was the only kind of religious studies offered at my school - if you wanted to study religion, you studied religion as a whole, not Christianity or Islam in isolation. As it was nominally a Church of England school, we had morning assemblies with a Christian theme, and from these (but not from comparative religious studies classes) Jews and Muslims were exempt.