Religion and parental pressure

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Leave the church of Sweden outside this. I have never said, nor i will never say, that the church of Sweden has higher moral than anyone else. If I would say that the church of Sweden indeed was of higher moral than anyone else, then I would make the same mistake you do when you say that JW, in general and per individual, are of higher moral than everyone is not meant as an instult towards you, robbie. You are of the highest moral, exactly as I am.

you want to leave the church outside of this but comparisons are necessary if we are to establish a higher morality of one organisation over another. You may indeed pick any organisation that you choose, it matters not.

If anyone does something wrong, as in child abuse it is not only a congregational matter but a criminal one, the perpetrator shall be reported to the police, regardless if there are two witnesses or not. We deal win sin, the authorities deals with the law. This is now well documented and you may find the procedures are in the public domain, i will not reiterate it again. If the person is found to have been guilty of a crime they are removed from any position of authority they hold, they may, depending on its nature also be removed from the congregation entirely. In such a serious case as child abuse, a person will not be considered for any further privileges of service in the foreseeable future, in fact, they cannot even apply to be considered for privileges for a period of five years after their conviction, this holds for other breaches of morality as well. In the case of child abuse it will be very unlikely that that person will ever hold a position of trust again.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you want to leave the church outside of this but comparisons are necessary if we are to establish a higher morality of one organisation over another. You may indeed pick any organisation that you choose, it matters not.

If anyone does something wrong, as in child abuse it is not only a congregational matter but a criminal one, the perpetrator sha ...[text shortened]... child abuse it will be very unlikely that that person will ever hold a position of trust again.

We are discussing the moral of JW. We are not setting up a competition between organizations. You want to prove you are of high moral (abolute)? Or do you want to prove that you are higher moral (relative) than others? Take your pick. But that is one you have to do for yourself.

You say that JW is of high moral (absolute). I say that JW is not (absolute).

Originally posted by FabianFnas
We are discussing the moral of JW. We are not setting up a competition between organizations. You want to prove you are of high moral (abolute)? Or do you want to prove that you are higher moral (relative) than others? Take your pick. But that is one you have to do for yourself.

You say that JW is of high moral (absolute). I say that JW is not (absolute).

dear Fabian, the term 'higher', is a term which denotes relativity, relative that is to something lower, if we are to establish whether something is higher or lower, we must gather data, take measurements and make comparisons, is that not the case? we have not even encroached upon that 'dirty word', 'absolute'.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
dear Fabian, the term 'higher', is a term which denotes relativity, relative that is to something lower, if we are to establish whether something is higher or lower, we must gather data, take measurements and make comparisons, is that not the case? we have not even encroached upon that 'dirty word', 'absolute'.

You are the one who wrote "our high moral standards" (absolute). Not 'higher moral than others' (relative). I say that you (JW) don't have high morals. You say you do.

If an organization says that they are of high moral, that have to be confirmed. Until this is done the statement must be doubted. The high moral of JW is doubted. Numerous documents shows that the moral is not very high at JW. And now we're talking about child abuse only.

I didn't have to show a bunch of links to öpw moral things that have happened, you started to defend them in advance. This shows that you are aware of the critics and think that the defence is necessary.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You are the one who wrote "our high moral standards" (absolute). Not 'higher moral than others' (relative). I say that you (JW) don't have high morals. You say you do.

If an organization says that they are of high moral, that have to be confirmed. Until this is done the statement must be doubted. The high moral of JW is doubted. Numerous documents show ce. This shows that you are aware of the critics and think that the defence is necessary.

yes our 'high moral standards', is not an absolute, nor can it be, for it does not exclude that others also may have high moral standards, does it, 'highest', would be an absolute Fabian, not 'higher'. Since you mentioned child abuse, shall we compare the statistics Fabian, shall we???, will statistics prove that we have a higher moral standard than other religious organisations, shall we quote the number of child abuse cases that have been reported amongst Jehovahs witnesses in the past one hundred years and juxtapose them beside those of other organisations and the national populace to draw some type of conclusion from the data, shall we?

Jehovahs witnesses, cases of child abuse in the last one hundred years,

During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States; In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts. wkipedia

please tell the forum what the figure is Fabian for other denominations, like lets say the catholic church, for one year,

In 2004, the John Jay report tabulated a total of 4,392 priests and deacons in the U.S. against whom allegations of sexual abuse have been made.

what about protestant denominations,

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

http://www.insurancejournal.com

thats only in one year Fabian,

I think i have no doubt, going on statistical data, that in the case of child abuse, Jehovahs wiotnesses are more moral than either the catholic church or the protestant denominations, as for the general populace,

lets see its estimated between 3 and 9 percent of the population, lets say five for arguments sake,

80,000 elders @ five percent = 4,000

that actual statistic is 7 in the last one hundred years

i have no alternative but to state, statistically in the case of child abuse, after have conducted a comparative study that yes indeed Jehovahs witnesses in the United states of America have higher morals than, both Catholics and Protestants and the general populace!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes our 'high moral standards', is not an absolute, nor can it be, for it does not exclude that others also may have high moral standards, does it, 'highest', would be an absolute Fabian, not 'higher'. Since you mentioned child abuse, shall we compare the statistics Fabian, shall we???, will statistics prove that we have a higher moral standard than ...[text shortened]... rica have higher morals than, both Catholics and Protestants and the general populace![/b]

I don't compare. You like to compare. I don't.

Whenever any religious organisation, or any other org too, says "We have high morals" I doubt it. Who do they think they are? The white nights on moral? If you were a catholic and said it, I would have the same doubt. Protestants too. Now you are a JW, and there are a lot of documents about child abuse in inside JW, so I doubt the morality in JW.

But at least you admit that there are child abuses inside the JW. That's good for a start.
You also give us the number of cases that has been sued. Nice!
Now give me the number that has not been sued, because JW want to keep it a secret and not report the abuse to the authorities.

Because this is what JW has been accused for - keeping it as an internal affair!

Perhaps you don't even get the statistics. I am sure that in you congregation there are no child abuses. But you defend JW in whole, as if you know the total number of abuses? Do you?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I don't compare. You like to compare. I don't.

Whenever any religious organisation, or any other org too, says "We have high morals" I doubt it. Who do they think they are? The white nights on moral? If you were a catholic and said it, I would have the same doubt. Protestants too. Now you are a JW, and there are a lot of documents about child abuse in ...[text shortened]... ild abuses. But you defend JW in whole, as if you know the total number of abuses? Do you?

your position is an act of faith, you doubt but you have no scientific data with which to backup your claim, it therefore remains unsubstantiated and pure conjecture, i on the other hand have produced data and drawn conclusions from my comparative study, my method is scientific, yours religious, now isn't that ironic!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
So you want to see the links to stories that says otherwise?

This can be taken as insults, so I hesitate to do that. But there are plenty of these stories that says that highly un-morals things are going on on a dayly basis.

Please, just give me persission to do that and I do that in a jiffie.

Or just say that JW does not have higher morals than others, and we agree.

I have attended the assemblies and conventions put on by the Witnesses all my life. The majority of that time one could leave a purse, briefcase, camera or whatever on their seat and walk off and never worry about it disappering. EVER. But as this world has gotten worse and with ones that aren't Witnesses realizing the complete love and trust we have among ourselves, have from time to time attended our assemblies and have started to steal when the chance arises.
So now because of ones with lower moral standards sneaking in we have to keep our guard up where we never had to before.
And as I've stated many times, the majority of JW's came from other religions and the love and morals we all try to live by attracted them to become a part of this organization and most importantly it is something they never had seen in their previous churches. EVER.

Originally posted by galveston75
I have attended the assemblies and conventions put on by the Witnesses all my life. The majority of that time one could leave a purse, briefcase, camera or whatever on their seat and walk off and never worry about it disappering. EVER. But as this world has gotten worse and with ones that aren't Witnesses realizing the complete love and trust we have a ...[text shortened]... on and most importantly it is something they never had seen in their previous churches. EVER.

yes its truly beautiful!

Originally posted by galveston75
I have attended the assemblies and conventions put on by the Witnesses all my life. The majority of that time one could leave a purse, briefcase, camera or whatever on their seat and walk off and never worry about it disappering. EVER. But as this world has gotten worse and with ones that aren't Witnesses realizing the complete love and trust we have a ...[text shortened]... on and most importantly it is something they never had seen in their previous churches. EVER.

Robbie showed me with statistics, that a number of children have been abused by Jehovas Wittnesses. And you say that you can be totally safe in the church? Everyone? Even thos children Mr Robbie showed me?

"And as I've stated many times, the majority of JW's came from other religions"
Does this mean that JW is one religion and Christianity is another? That JWers are not christians? Okay, fine with me. I learn a new thing every day.

If you cannot feel safe outside the church as you can within the church, that say a lot of the American society, not of your church. You can be equally safe in my home church. Doesn't say anything about the moral of the church.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Q: Why are children of christian parents mostly christians?
A: Because they are brought up that way. Not because they have learnt the truth.

Is this right? Many of those christians says they have done the choise themselves. But what happen if I aske a muslim the same thing?

Q: Why are children of muslim parents mostly muslims?
A: Because they are ...[text shortened]... use they have learnt the truth.

Same answer. Therefore, it has nothing to do with the thruth.

Imagine that. People grow up to believe what they are taught. 😲

Originally posted by whodey
Imagine that. People grow up to believe what they are taught. 😲

Exactly. That's my point. It has nothing to do with Truth.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Exactly. That's my point. It has nothing to do with Truth.

so explaining to a child that stealing is wrong has nothing to do with truth, explaining to a child that acts of generosity and kindness are virtuous has nothing to do with truth? How can that be Fabian?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so explaining to a child that stealing is wrong has nothing to do with truth, explaining to a child that acts of generosity and kindness are virtuous has nothing to do with truth? How can that be Fabian?

And this has to do with the topic on the thread - how...?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes, when its like that, its indoctrination, not learning.

So, do you call children going through public schools indoctrination if they
teach children how to think and what to accept as truth and what not to?
Kelly