Originally posted by josephw
I have been morose lately. I'm evolving here I think. I'll grow though it and develop a better approach. Be more objective, and less emotional. I'm really not a forum type. I need to learn how to debate these things without alienating people.

Do you think I'm on track?

I think everyone on a quest for personal spiritual enlightenment needs to free their mind. Don't be constrained by dogma or any one religious philosophy. Be open to all ideas and challenge them. Never think you know it all and, at the same time, accept that you'll never truly know the absolute truth. You need to find a version of the truth that fits your perspective.

What I'm trying to say is don't take it too seriously, certainly don't let your search for spiritual truth get you down. I think it unlikely that any God wants you to suffer for your belief. Quiet the contrary, he likely wants you happy and at peace. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, it's the internet.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I think everyone on a quest for personal spiritual enlightenment needs to free their mind. Don't be constrained by dogma or any one religious philosophy. Be open to all ideas and challenge them. Never think you know it all and, at the same time, accept that you'll never truly know the absolute truth. You need to find a version of the truth that fi ts you happy and at peace. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, it's the internet.

Thank you sir!

I agree with what you're saying in principle, and I appreciate your sincerity. It is refreshing to hear this side of you.

Now I hope the others will see my replies to them on the first page. 🙂

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"We have to make the world better - bit by bit."

They say that pedophiles can't be rehabilitated. Do you think we should execute those who torture and murder children?[/b]

I don't think anyone should be executed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The problem of evil is a big one that has troubled theists throughout the ages. I have come across a number of attempts to deal with it, but am yet to see a good solution. Let me summarize the ones I can think of:
1. Adam and Eve. Try to shift the blame to Adam, Eve and Satan.
2. Free will is impossible without evil. Of course this overlooks the fact th ...[text shortened]... e. I actually don't think you would have written the post if the victim had died of swine flu.

1. Accountabilty is such a frightening word. Why not just blame it all on God?
2. Evil has nothing to do with free will? How so? Are you suggesting that evil is brought about by God forcing people to sin?
3. So you claim that God is cruel? So tell us, do you have any blessings in your life? Are you in constant torment? Does God bop you on the head everytime you post a thread in defiance of him?

Suffering is unavoidabel only if considering that our bodies are failing. Of course, the Christian would argue that this first started when man fell in the Garden.

Originally posted by josephw
-When an individual who does not believe in the existence of God makes the accusation that God is cruel because He doesn't intervene, then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.

Anybody have anything to say?[/b]

If God did intervene everytime someone sinned, you and I would have perished a long time ago as well as everyone else on this thread. In fact, Adam and Eve would have never made it out of the Garden. Of course, God does and has intervene at times in regards to sin. We see this in the story of Noah, for example. It seems that God will show mercy and long suffering up until the point of no return in regards to man's wickedness. He won't let us go as far as destroying ourselves entirely. When it comes to sin, there is a line in the sand for us all to cross, then we will see some action!!

Originally posted by whodey
If God did intervene everytime someone sinned, you and I would have perished a long time ago as well as everyone else on this thread. In fact, Adam and Eve would have never made it out of the Garden. Of course, God does and has intervene at times in regards to sin. We see this in the story of Noah, for example. It seems that God will show mercy and long s ...[text shortened]... comes to sin, there is a line in the sand for us all to cross, then we will see some action!!

So god intervening means we perish, is that right?
This notion of intervention is ridiculous.
Either god can't intervene - in which case it is not terribly omnipotent.
Or it can intervene but chooses not to - why would it make this choice? I can think of two obvious answers: 1. it doesn't care about us, so why should we care about it; or 2. it is oblivious to us, so why should we care about it?

There is obviously an alternative I have chosen. There is not god. We can rely only on ourselves to help ourselves.
Time to get over it ...

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...for no good reason, jumps out and leaves them to die?"

Is it for us to question God? If there be a God?

I can't apply that line of reasoning. I won't blame God for evil.
I assume responsibility for my own actions.[/b]

Originally posted by josephw
Is it for us to question God? If there be a God?

I think the only response from Christians I have seen to The Problem of Evil and The Problem of Suffering that achieves stalemate is The Book of Job Defense, of which the above is an example.

All other lines I have seen, such as Free Will Theodicies, result in loss. Sadly, the difference between debate and chess is that during the former, the loser often doesn't realise they have lost :-)

Originally posted by whodey
If God did intervene everytime someone sinned, you and I would have perished a long time ago as well as everyone else on this thread. In fact, Adam and Eve would have never made it out of the Garden. Of course, God does and has intervene at times in regards to sin. We see this in the story of Noah, for example. It seems that God will show mercy and long s ...[text shortened]... comes to sin, there is a line in the sand for us all to cross, then we will see some action!!

True.

2 verses come to mind.

Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I think we all, in general, suffer consequences for our actions in the course of life.

1 Timothy 5:24 - Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

And then again some seem to get away with things, but will give an account eventually.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Originally posted by josephw
[b]Is it for us to question God? If there be a God?

I think the only response from Christians I have seen to The Problem of Evil and The Problem of Suffering that achieves stalemate is The Book of Job Defense, of which the above is an example.

All other lines I have seen, such as Free Will Theodicies, result ...[text shortened]... debate and chess is that during the former, the loser often doesn't realise they have lost :-)[/b]

You have given me an idea for a thread. Thanks!

Originally posted by josephw
I understand where you're coming from karoly, but it is evil to kidnap and murder children.
There is no justification for it.

God forgives all of their ignorance...