29 Jun 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenWe all create in some fashion. Whether it be artwork, or music, or Buicks, everyone creates something. My mother and father created me, for example. These are all demonstrable creations. Whether your god created anything is open to debate. My guess is that you're giving him credit for things he had nothing to do with.
OK - I'll be more specific Raj:
This is God's creation, but show Me what those besides Him have created. Nay, the unjust are in manifest error. [31.11]
My point is, why is other than God worshiped if He alone it the creator of all things?!
Please respond.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by rwingettWe don't all create, rather we "make" things from existing material.
We all create in some fashion. Whether it be artwork, or music, or Buicks, everyone creates something. My mother and father created me, for example. These are all demonstrable creations. Whether your god created anything is open to debate. My guess is that you're giving him credit for things he had nothing to do with.
Artwork,music, Buicks are all apart of creation.
For example -
"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another." 49:13
And that it is He (Allâh) Who causes death and gives life; (An-Najm 53:44)
And that He (Allâh) creates the pairs, male and female, (An-Najm 53:45)
And it is Allâh that decreases or increases (your provisions), and unto Him you shall return. (Al-Baqarah 2:245)
Allâh teaches you. And Allâh is the All-Knower of each and everything. (Al-Baqarah 2:282)
He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. (Aali Imran 3:6)
And to Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allâh is Able to do all things. (Al-Ma'idah 5:17)
Allâh is He upon Whom all things depend (Al-Ikhlas 112:2)
Allâh has created you and what you make!" (As-Saffat 37:96)
Allâh (Alone) originates the creation, then He will repeat it, then to Him you will be returned. (Ar-Rum 30:11)
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And many more like them. So I return to my origional question. If it is Allaah (God) who has done all of this, then why direct your worship to other than Him?!
Please respond.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenI totally agree with you ... Muslims should follow Allah.
We don't all create, rather we "make" things from existing material.
Artwork,music, Buicks are all apart of creation.
For example -
"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another." 49:13
And that it is He (Allâh) Who causes death and gives life; (An-Najm 53:44)
And ...[text shortened]... has done all of this, then why direct your worship to other than Him?!
Please respond.
Any Muslim that does not follow Allah should be executed.
End of thread now?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by rwingettLet me put it this way. Hindus say it openly that there are other accpetable roads to salvation, and virtually never condemn another religion. Muslims are the opposite. Some christians individually have accepted that there may be salvation for good people regardless of their religion. A Christian sect as a group wont agree openly to that.
Do Christians believe that there are other roads to salvation than by accepting Jesus? This would be news to me if they did.
I am basing this conclusion on the many discussions I have had with knowlegeable Christians who have had problems reconciling the following passage from Romans 2 with the belief that Christians alone have access to salvation :-
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
The passage clearly states that those without the law of Christ can still do the work of Christ because their conscience is their guide. Such persons will not be condemned in the day of judgement.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I think, Raj, according to your words that you imagine Allaah is some other god? Rather Allaah IS God; please take a look:
I totally agree with you ... Muslims should follow Allah.
Any Muslim that does not follow Allah should be executed.
End of thread now?
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Abrahaam but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
[2.132] And the same did Abrahaam enjoin on his sons and (so did) Jacob . O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
[2.133] Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Jaoob, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Abrhaam and Ismail and Isaac, one God only, and to Him do we submit.
[2.134] This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did.
[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Abrahaam, inclining toward the truth, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abrahaam and Ismail and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
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It should be clear that Allaah IS God. Now back to my origional question: Why is other than Allaah worshiped if He is the creator of all things?
Raj, I see that you are familiar with the bible, so please respond to my question.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenI think most Christians realise that the Allah of the muslim faith and God of the Christian faith is the one and same God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.
I think, Raj, according to your words that you imagine Allaah is some other god? Rather Allaah IS God; please take a look:
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Abrahaam but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a M ...[text shortened]... l things?
Raj, I see that you are familiar with the bible, so please respond to my question.
The problem is that the prophet Mohammed who brought Islam to the Muslims and the son of God, Jesus Christ who brought Christianity to there rest of the world are two different people with two different messages.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by badmoonHe created us so that he can have himself a peculiar people.
Do you really think that you were created but something called God? Why would a God want to create you? Out of curiosity? Something to do to pass time?
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Deu 26:18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
I think most Christians realise that the Allah of the muslim faith and God of the Christian faith is the one and same God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.
The problem is that the prophet Mohammed who brought Islam to the Muslims and the son of God, Jesus Christ who brought Christianity to there rest of the world are two different people with two different messages.
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
30 Jun 08
2 edits
Originally posted by badmoonGod would create you in order to be expressed from within you for your enjoyment and His glory.
Do you really think that you were created but something called God? Why would a God want to create you? Out of curiosity? Something to do to pass time?
Think of a glove made in the image of a human hand. The glove has a hand shape so that a hand may comfortably fit into the glove. Then the hand and the glove are one, united, and in harmony of purpose and expression.
God created man in a "God shaped" way if you will, for the purpose that as the hand fits into the glove, the Eternal God may also fit into man.
The question now is what does this hand in glove or God in man look like? How does it look?
It looks like Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son of God. So Jesus prays that those saved in His salvation would be with Him sharing His glory which He knew before the creation of the universe:
"And now, glorify Me along with Yourself Father, with the glory which I had with you before the world was ... And the glory which you have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as We are one; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that you have loved them even as You have loved Me ... Father, concerning, that which you have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for YOu loved Me before he foundation of the world." (See John 17)
To be in the glory means to be in the expression of the Divine Being. This Jesus Christ enjoyed as a man and even as the eternal Son before the foundation of the world. He petitions His Father that His believers may be perfected into that same expression of the Divine Life of the Father.
THis eternal expression of the Divine nature and life of the Triune God is what God has purposed for His redeemed. THis is for their eternal enjoyment and His expression.
In His great love He desires that you share this eternal glory in His kingdom. He has called the saved into His eternal glory in Christ. Why God loves us so much is hard to know. But He just does love man so.
30 Jun 08
Originally posted by Izzadeenallah is god. or better said allah is muslims view on god. christians whorship god too but they have a different version of god. it is like a salesman using one strategy to sell to a jew and another to sell to a muslim or a hindu.
I think, Raj, according to your words that you imagine Allaah is some other god? Rather Allaah IS God; please take a look:
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Abrahaam but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a M ...[text shortened]... l things?
Raj, I see that you are familiar with the bible, so please respond to my question.
why would people believe that a god of love would condemn decent people just because they say mahommed was just a man and didn't hear god's word or that jesus might not have been the son of god?
we are here to make an impact. if the impact is positive, why be condemned for eternity just because you were thaught that god is called Allah instead of Jahve or Shiva?
30 Jun 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenSo you are saying that the 'creation' you are talking about does not include information (patterns of matter / energy etc), but only physical entities.
We don't all create, rather we "make" things from existing material.
Artwork,music, Buicks are all apart of creation.
Are you also ruling out the conversion of energy to matter? (I assume you must be).
So what you are really talking about is a hypothetical entity that made the energy of the universe (- but did not necessarily arrange it in specific patterns)
Do you know how he did that? Are you sure he didn't get the energy from somewhere else?
And many more like them. So I return to my origional question. If it is Allaah (God) who has done all of this, then why direct your worship to other than Him?!
I don't think anyone does knowingly do so. Most people who do not worship your God, do not believe that he created the universe.
Do you know anyone who believes as you do, but does not worship him?
Or did you not think your question through?
30 Jun 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I understand your point, but from an Islaamic point of view the message of Islaam and the (origional) message brought by Jesus the son of Mary are basically the same. Allaah says in the Quraan:
I think most Christians realise that the Allah of the muslim faith and God of the Christian faith is the one and same God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.
The problem is that the prophet Mohammed who brought Islam to the Muslims and the son of God, Jesus Christ who brought Christianity to there rest of the world are two different people with two different messages.
[6.82] Those who believe and do not mix up their faith with polytheism, those are they who shall have the security and they are those who are rightly guided.
[6.83] And this was Our argument which we gave to Abrahaam against his people; We exalt in dignity whom We please; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.
[6.84] And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob; each did We guide, and Noah did We guide before, and of his descendants, David and Solomn and Job and Joseph and Arron; and thus do We reward those who do good (to others).
[6.85] And Zakariya and John and Jesus and Elijah; every one was of the good;
[6.86] And Ismail and Al-Yasha and Jonah and Lot; and every one We made to excel (in) the worlds:
[6.87] And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren, and We chose them and guided them into the right way.
[6.88] This is Allah's guidance, He guides thereby whom He pleases of His servants; and if they had been guilty of polythemism certainly what they did would have become ineffectual for them.
[6.89] These are they to whom We gave the book and the wisdom and the prophecy; therefore if these disbelieve in it We have already entrusted with it a people who are not disbelievers in it.
[6.90] These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you for any reward for it; it is nothing but a reminder to the nations.
[16.36]And verily, We have sent among every nation a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allâh (Alone), and avoid all false deities." Then of them were some whom Allâh guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth).
Like wise, the Prophet Muhammed is quoted as saying, "I am most akin to the son of Mary among the whole of mankind and the Prophets are of different mothers, but of one religion, and no Prophet was raised between me and him (Jesus the son of Mary)."
As the above explains, Islaam (which is the religion of all the Prophets) fundamentally can be summed up in one sentence: Worship Allaah alone and worship Him with what He has revealed.
So Raj, my God and your God are the same(1), as you mentioned in your post, but also the message is the same.
Back to my origional question, "If God is one, why is other than Him worshiped"?
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(1) Who is Allaah?
Very often one will here the Arabic word "Allaah" being used in regards to Islaam.
The word "Allaah" is simply the Arabic word for Almighty God, and is the same word used by Arabic speaking Christians and Jews.
If one were to pick up an Arabic translation of the Bible, one would see the word "Allaah" being use where the word "God" is used in English. Actually, the Arabic word for Almighty God, "Allaah", is quite similar to the word for God in other Semitic languages - for example, the Hebrew word for God is "Elah".
For various reasons, some non-Muslims mistakenly believe that Muslims worship a different God than Jews and Christians. This is certainly not the case, since the Pure Monotheism of Islaam calls all people to the worship of the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all of the other prophets. However, even though Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God -since there is only one God - their concepts concerning Him differ in some significant ways.
30 Jun 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenWell first of all maybe you should stop asking questions that have no answer like "If God is one, why is other than Him worshiped"?
I understand your point, but from an Islaamic point of view the message of Islaam and the (origional) message brought by Jesus the son of Mary are basically the same. Allaah says in the Quraan:
[6.82] Those who believe and do not mix up their faith with polytheism, those are they who shall have the security and they are those who are rightly guided.
[6. ...[text shortened]... only one God - their concepts concerning Him differ in some significant ways.
More importantly you are very wrong when you say that the message is the same. I could list a hundred fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity. But lets stick to just one for now.... Muslims believe that Ismael is the chosen one of God and Christians/Jews believe that the chosen one is Issac.
Please resist the temptation to tell me that the Bible is incorrect or that the translation is wrong or that Christians are interpreting the Bible wrongly. Here is the passage in Gen 17 that clearly states that God is establishing a covenant with Issac.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
01 Jul 08
Raj
Even if this "covenant" that you speak of is with Isaac, that does mean that other than Allaah has the right to be worshiped.
Please take a look:
[4.116] Surely Allah does not forgive ploytheism, but He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
[4.117] They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan.
From these verses, God tells us that the worst sin is polytheism: praying to angels, prophets, saints, or worshiping at graves.
The Messenger (peace be upon all of them) said : whoever dies calling on only Allaah will enter Heaven; whoever dies calling on other than Allaah will enter Hell
That "covenant" that you speak of does not mean that you can now do whatever you want & wirship whoever you want, but you have to worship Allaah - alone. WHICH has been voided by both Jews and Christiand by worshiping other than him.
It's not often that I converse with a Chirstian who actully knows his book.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenI thought we agreed earlier that Allah=God= the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob (and Ismael). Its all the same God. The difference is in the messengers Mohammed v Christ who said completely different things.
Raj
Even if this "covenant" that you speak of is with Isaac, that does mean that other than Allaah has the right to be worshiped.
Please take a look:
[4.116] Surely Allah does not forgive ploytheism, but He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
[4.117] T ...[text shortened]... er than him.
It's not often that I converse with a Chirstian who actully knows his book.
How can you now say that Jews and Christians are worshipping a different God? Is it the name 'Allah' you think should be used and not 'God' or 'Jehovah'?