Originally posted by wolfgang594
Sparked from the other thread.
Please answer 1,2,3 or 4 with short explanation.
Do Christians believe that their god wants;
1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
OR
2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
OR
3. Jews to become Christian?
OR
4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
Originally posted by wolfgang593, Its paramount that one accepts the messiah and puts faith upon his sin atoning sacrifice. Christ was the Messiah, undoubtedly.
Sparked from the other thread.
Please answer 1,2,3 or 4 with short explanation.
Do Christians believe that their god wants;
1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
OR
2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
OR
3. Jews to become Christian?
OR
4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo god wants Jews to become Christians and ignore some of
3, Its paramount that one accepts the messiah and puts faith upon his sin atoning sacrifice. Christ was the Messiah, undoubtedly.
the Laws he gave them?
Why the change of heart on his part? Didn't he get it right or
do you think Mosese was bluffing?
Originally posted by wolfgang593
Sparked from the other thread.
Please answer 1,2,3 or 4 with short explanation.
Do Christians believe that their god wants;
1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
OR
2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
OR
3. Jews to become Christian?
OR
4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
Originally posted by wolfgang59Moses was only able to prepare a shadow of a better sacrifice and covenant to come.
So god wants Jews to become Christians and ignore some of
the Laws he gave them?
Why the change of heart on his part? Didn't he get it right or
do you think Mosese was bluffing?
Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:1-28 NKJV)
Wolfgang and Rajk,
Would you consider reading the book of Romans out of the King James version of the bible? Hopefully, you will learn why the law was given and what the law does for the Israelites.
If we of the world were given the 10 commandments and are not able to keep them perfectly, how could be able to keep all the law perfectly? The law of the Israelites goes beyond the 10 commandments. If you ever want to read in the old testament all the law for the Israelites, feel free.
But even the rich young ruler, who kept the law from his youth, and not perfectly of course, had to follow Christ to inherit eternal life.
King James Version
================
Luke 18: 18 - 22
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And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
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But don't think that giving all we have to the poor will save us. In the bible, Zacchaeus did not have to give all that he had. Neither did the thief who saved while he hung on a cross.
Luke 23: 42 - 43
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And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 19: 4 - 10
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And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
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Lastly, there was the healed man of the Gadarenes. Christ did not ask him to follow, but publish what the Lord had done for him.
Mark 5: 18 - 20
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And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
In order to be saved, we don't need to keep the law to inherit eternal life.
John 3: 16
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As a bonus topic in this thread, maybe a New Testament believer could preach to us a little on what Jesus says in Matthew 5:18.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
To my mind, that is telling Christians they cannot ignore any of the Old Testament law. Yet Paul's letters seem to allow ignoring some parts of the OT law.
Paul Dirac and All,
That is a good point. Another question can be what did Jesus when he said that he came not to abolish the law to fulfill? Also, what did Jesus mean when he said on the cross, "it is finished."
King James Version
==============
Matthew 5: 17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John 19: 30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Matthew 3: 15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 28: 18 - 20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The Revelation 5: 12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
The Revelation 1 : 18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Paul Dirac,
I don't know exactly how to answer presently, but for now, the Apostles after Christ's death and resurrection decided what was necessary in doing right after being saved. They obviously decided that keeping the whole law is not necessary to be saved.
One thing more is a man does not have to be circumcised to be saved.
Originally posted by wolfgang595. Don't tell atheists what his plan is.
Sparked from the other thread.
Please answer 1,2,3 or 4 with short explanation.
Do Christians believe that their god wants;
1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
OR
2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
OR
3. Jews to become Christian?
OR
4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
Originally posted by Paul Dirac IITo my mind, that is telling Christians they cannot ignore any of the Old Testament law.
As a bonus topic in this thread, maybe a New Testament believer could preach to us a little on what Jesus says in Matthew 5:18.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
To my mind, that is tellin ...[text shortened]... ny of the Old Testament law. Yet Paul's letters seem to allow ignoring some parts of the OT law.
Within the context of the Sermon on the Mount as a whole, such an interpretation makes little sense. Start a new thread if you're really interested.