Originally posted by daniel58
You said "I don't believe in heaven or hell; neither really makes a lick of sense to me. Jesus talked of Paradise, not heaven, and hell sounds like a place that the living invented to make themselves feel better for the bad ones that got away with it".

To which you respond So you're saying Earth is a "paradise"..., which makes absolutely no sense to me.

Originally posted by Badwater
To which you respond [b]So you're saying Earth is a "paradise"..., which makes absolutely no sense to me.[/b]

So tell me what "paradise" ARE you referring to?

Originally posted by buckky
You have no idea as to the reality of Hell? You believe it's real because it appeals to you.You like the idea of Hell because you must have certain amount of Sadism in you. No normal minded individual would find Hell acceptable. You must be abnormal or just plain cruel.

Hell has no appeal to me, so once again your off, I also do not find
any joy or pleasure knowing people are going to end up there either.

I believe Heaven to be real, and I can see how the same God who can
forgive every sin without ever bringing up our faults through His love,
grace, and mercy can also demand every sin or fault be dealt with and
that punishment go as long without ever giving mercy or let up
throughout all time too. It is the same type of thing, forgiveness and
accountablity both throughout time and both pefect in how they are
in their own realms.
Kelly

Originally posted by daniel58
So tell me what "paradise" ARE you referring to?

I'm not. Jesus was the one referring to Paradise.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What purpose does this punishment serve?

Also I am led to believe that everyone deserves said punishment and only those who get forgiven by Jesus can avoid it. Also the forgiveness comes at a price. Sounds like some form of black mail to me.

I see it as those who get God's grace and mercy do not deserve it,
and those that get Hell do. It is God's kingdom, we punish for crimes
in our realms as we see fit, I don't think we can do that and call God
wrong for doing with His own as He sees fit. I also see Jesus' grace
more like someone offering to pull another out of the water before
they die, you can accept the help or reject it, the choice will leave you
in Jesus' hands or on your own.
Kelly

Originally posted by Badwater
I'm not. Jesus was the one referring to Paradise.

My question to you; DO YOU THINK THERE IS A PARADISE!!!

Originally posted by KellyJay
I see it as those who get God's grace and mercy do not deserve it,
and those that get Hell do.

So without Gods mercy everyone would go to hell? How is God not responsible for setting up such a scenario?

It is God's kingdom, we punish for crimes
in our realms as we see fit, I don't think we can do that and call God
wrong for doing with His own as He sees fit.
We punish for crimes in our realms for very specific reasons not simply 'because its the done thing' or 'for the fun of it'. I merely want to know
what purpose this punishment serves. When my son does something wrong I do not take "but my friend did it" as an excuse.

I also see Jesus' grace
more like someone offering to pull another out of the water before
they die, you can accept the help or reject it, the choice will leave you
in Jesus' hands or on your own.
Kelly
That depends on who put you in the water and why.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not quite the whole story Noobster my friend, for your assumption that God is a hypothesis is not entirely relevant, for just as you can see the effects in real terms of a so called natural law, you can also discern the effects of a morally independent stance from God, just take a look around you. what has the new morality brought? this adherence to ...[text shortened]... the other dying because of obesity, oh it is thoroughly depressing to contemplate , thoroughly!

In a nutshell, all the worlds problems are caused because we have taken a morally independent stance from God? Is that what you believe?

I think it's rather silly to blame problems in society on our rejection of God. Religiosity has decreased in the UK over the last 150yrs, and your view is that our morality has decreased along with it. But that's not the case, the massive increase in womens rights and ethnic minority rights are two major examples that counter that argument.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So without Gods mercy everyone would go to hell? How is God not responsible for setting up such a scenario?

[b]It is God's kingdom, we punish for crimes
in our realms as we see fit, I don't think we can do that and call God
wrong for doing with His own as He sees fit.
We punish for crimes in our realms for very specific reasons not simply 'beca s' hands or on your own.
Kelly[/b]
That depends on who put you in the water and why.[/b]

So without Gods mercy everyone would go to hell? How is God not responsible for setting up such a scenario?

Yes, without God's mercy to deal with our actions everyone would go
to Hell, either we are going to be held accountable for our actions or
we are not. It is God's kingdom, He setup the way He wanted to, your
liking it or not does not really matter as my liking it does not matter
towards the reality of it or not either.

I merely want to know what purpose this punishment serves. When
my son does something wrong I do not take "but my friend did it" as
an excuse.

You don't believe in punishment, I'm not sure I follow your question
about it. No one I know is/was being punished for the fun of it, and
what are you getting at with excuses. The bottom line is that God is
going to hold everyone up for their actions, you will either recieve
mercy due to Jesus actions and will recieve no guilt for the sins that
are forgiven, or you are going to held accountable for all the sins you
have done and will recieve no mercy at all. What it serves is judgment
for wrongs done, justice for wrongs, and mercy for those that want it.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
So without Gods mercy everyone would go to hell? How is God not responsible for setting up such a scenario?

[b]It is God's kingdom, we punish for crimes
in our realms as we see fit, I don't think we can do that and call God
wrong for doing with His own as He sees fit.
We punish for crimes in our realms for very specific reasons not simply 'beca ...[text shortened]... s' hands or on your own.
Kelly[/b]
That depends on who put you in the water and why.[/b]

"That depends on who put you in the water and why."

In this case we jumped in.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You don't believe in punishment, I'm not sure I follow your question
about it.

I think punishment should have a purpose.

No one I know is/was being punished for the fun of it, and
what are you getting at with excuses.
Sorry, I see I phrased that badly. You had implied that we should not criticize God for punishing because we punish too. I meant to say something like: if I tell my son off for punishing his cat and my son says "My friend also punishes his cat", I do not take that as a good excuse. I hope it is clearer now. I think God should have a reason for punishing other than the fact that humans do it too.

The bottom line is that God is going to hold everyone up for their actions,
But what does that mean? What does it mean to "hold everyone up for their actions"? You say it as if it is obvious that everyone must be punished, but it is far from obvious.

...or you are going to held accountable for all the sins you
have done and will recieve no mercy at all. What it serves is judgment
for wrongs done, justice for wrongs, and mercy for those that want it.
Kelly
But how does punishment equal judgment or justice? You seem to believe that every wrong must be punished for justice to prevail, but you do not justify such a stance. Is it simply an unsupported belief or are you able to justify it?

Notice how both you and jaywill do not actually answer the question of why, you merely state over and over "that is how it must be".

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think punishment should have a purpose.

[b]No one I know is/was being punished for the fun of it, and
what are you getting at with excuses.
Sorry, I see I phrased that badly. You had implied that we should not criticize God for punishing because we punish too. I meant to say something like: if I tell my son off for punishing his cat and my son ually answer the question of why, you merely state over and over "that is how it must be".[/b]

I will have to give scriptural reasons for some of your questions, one
is that all sin is against God in His Kingdom, if I were to attack and
hurt one of the least in God's Kingdom the charge is that I attacked
and hurt God Himself. If you need me too I can provide scripture to
show this point. I would ask you in any kingdom of man if I were to
attack a ruler of any kingdom would the punishment for such an act be
greater than if were to attack the least in that kingdom?

I'll come back to this a little later and deal with the rest of your
questions, I have little time now.
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================================
Did I say 'self'? I meant 'Self'. Although there is no 'self' apart from God . Our 'essence' or higher 'Self' does not hurt or wound anyone because it would be harming 'itself'.
==============================================

Well, where do people live most of their life? Assuming for argument's sake t ...[text shortened]... are.

Do you think aliens from outer space are here to help us ?[/b]

I think e.t.'s from inner-space are her to help us.

As you rinterpretation of Jesus' way for us to follow, I agree. Seems I just have a different semantic take .When I say 'follow your self' I mean your 'higher self' and definatley not the self that is entangled in this world.

Yes, I agree, it is better to lose your self so you can 'gain' far greater 'in the end'

I dont know if hitler had any 'love'. Whatever he had it was certainly mis-guided. (hitler is a very noteable example we should all learn from)

I will get in the boat when I fullfill my dharma. There is no-one below me. I am the creator and destroyer of 'worlds'. (certainly not a position I advocate to others)

Originally posted by Proper Knob
In a nutshell, all the worlds problems are caused because we have taken a morally independent stance from God? Is that what you believe?

I think it's rather silly to blame problems in society on our rejection of God. Religiosity has decreased in the UK over the last 150yrs, and your view is that our morality has decreased along with it. But tha in womens rights and ethnic minority rights are two major examples that counter that argument.

yes this is exactly what i am saying, for if we take the sacred Christian principles of love for God and love for fellow man, and if persons adhered to these two deceptively simple principles, i genuinely believe that it would solve every social ill, imaginable. there would be no war, no prejudice, no minorities, no homelessness unless it was voluntary, no famine, no starving children.

i firmly believe my friend, that these principles have been pushed aside, and while the new morality may have indeed empowered certain strata's of society, for want of a better word, if these principles had been adhered to and applied in the first instance, none of these things would have happened, but both religion and government have pushed them aside in a drunken stupor of self interest. it is epitomised in the environmental issues that we are now facing, for Mr. Blair the former prime minister stated with clarity the situation, 'which nation is willing to sacrifice its economy for the sake of the environment?', he asked, and this is true for almost everything on a personal, national and international level, self interest is paramount. the Me-ism of the new morality based on a material view of our world is destined to consume us all!

is it any wonder I am crazy?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I think e.t.'s from inner-space are her to help us.

As you rinterpretation of Jesus' way for us to follow, I agree. Seems I just have a different semantic take .When I say 'follow your self' I mean your 'higher self' and definatley not the self that is entangled in this world.

Yes, I agree, it is better to lose your self so you can 'gain' far gre ...[text shortened]... creator and destroyer of 'worlds'. (certainly not a position I advocate to others)

==============================
I will get in the boat when I fullfill my dharma. There is no-one below me. I am the creator and destroyer of 'worlds'. (certainly not a position I advocate to others)
====================================

Do you know how many dharmas you have to fulfill?

Do you have anything like a stradegy of how many dharmas to fulfill each week to get to some goal?

Or do you just keep taking care of dharmas as they come up?