The universe can either have been around forever, or it has a beginning. If it has a beginning then you can ask how, did it come into existence? Calling on 'god' to create it poses more problems while still retaining the old ones but moving them onto god, i.e. has god existed forever or did god come into existence? If so, how did god come into existence? On the other hand if god has been around for an infinite time before creation, then why didn't god make the universe an infinite time ago? If the world is a disc supported by four giant elephants, which are in turn held up by an even bigger turtle, then what holds up the turtle?

Ps: This is leaving aside the philosophical dificulty of having something create the ‘universe’ given the word means ‘everything’.

Originally posted by Palynka
(Note: Anselm's argument is utter crap, I can't believe jaywill still brings it up seriously(?) in a debate)

Originally posted by googlefudge
The universe can either have been around forever, or it has a beginning. If it has a beginning then you can ask how, did it come into existence? Calling on 'god' to create it poses more problems while still retaining the old ones but moving them onto god, i.e. has god existed forever or did god come into existence? If so, how did god come into existence? ...[text shortened]... phical dificulty of having something create the ‘universe’ given the word means ‘everything’.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I was never completely convinced by Kant's refutation. IIRC, he uses the analogy of a £100-cheque having the same worth whether it exists or not.

Only problem is - half of accountancy is based on the principle that there is, indeed, a difference in worth.

🙂

Originally posted by Palynka
I've never heard of that analogy. Do you have a link? Sounds un-Kantish...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
In this context, Universe refers to the physical universe. If time itself is co-original with the physical universe, then questions of "before" (in time) have no meaning.