poor old hitler

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your view implies we are powerless to change the events that determinism dictates will happen . You would have needed my view to help you prevent hitler's carnage.

I do not believe the universe is strictly deterministic and have never claimed that I do. (quite the opposite in fact).
However you are totally missing the whole point. You are assuming that only the 'good' choice is impossible with determinism and the 'bad' choice is inevitable. That is nonsense and you know it. What if we are destined to prevent another Hitler? Then is is your view that is going to cause that to go wrong!

Originally posted by twhitehead
I suspect it was a result of loosing the war and not regret over committing the carnage. It wouldn't surprise me if Churchill had committed suicide if he lost the war and knew that he would soon be put on trial and almost certainly executed.

I did not suggest that he was experiencing regret over his carnage only that he was a disturbed and sad. Anyone who takes their own life in that way cannot be happy because they are destroying life itself. I think he was probably equally as sad in 1933 but it was covered up.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I do not believe the universe is strictly deterministic and have never claimed that I do. (quite the opposite in fact).
However you are totally missing the whole point. You are assuming that only the 'good' choice is impossible with determinism and the 'bad' choice is inevitable. That is nonsense and you know it. What if we are destined to prevent another Hitler? Then is is your view that is going to cause that to go wrong!

Wrong again . Both good and bad could be outcomes under determinism but there's no way that we can change what it destined to happen (apart from hoping the cosmic dice will prevent another hitler).

What we can say for sure is that under your view hitler was destined to happen and that we were powerless to stop it from happening ( apart from chance which is hardly empowering). Doesnt exactly fill one with hope does it? Maybe the next hitler will come or maybe we are destined by determinism to prevent him , who knows? One thing we do know is that if we don't prevent him we won't be able to look back in regret and think " we had a chance then to stop him and we didn't take it" . In my view I have to face the difficulties of incoherence and explanation , I try and take my medicine and admit this to be true about my view. In your view , we are always ultimately powerless in the face of deterministic forces and chance ( which is one reason why most people don't believe in it) so please , take your medicine dear chap or get out of the medical cabinet.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I do not believe the universe is strictly deterministic and have never claimed that I do. (quite the opposite in fact).
However you are totally missing the whole point. You are assuming that only the 'good' choice is impossible with determinism and the 'bad' choice is inevitable. That is nonsense and you know it. What if we are destined to prevent another Hitler? Then is is your view that is going to cause that to go wrong!

What if we are destined to prevent another Hitler? Then is is your view that is going to cause that to go wrong! WHITEY

Not neccesarily because my view implies that we can potentially choose or not choose to comply with our destiny. At least with my view we get the choice and are not powerless and subdued by fate or chance.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Wrong again . Both good and bad could be outcomes under determinism but there's no way that we can change what it destined to happen (apart from hoping the cosmic dice will prevent another hitler).

What we can say for sure is that under your view hitler was destined to happen and that we were powerless to stop it from happening ( apart from chance w ...[text shortened]... elieve in it) so please , take your medicine dear chap or get out of the medical cabinet.

So, did your free will stop Hitler? Will it stop the next Hitler? How exactly?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Not neccesarily because my view implies that we can potentially choose or not choose to comply with our destiny. At least with my view we get the choice and are not powerless and subdued by fate or chance.

In your view you are a slave to chance and I have shown that time and again with thought experiments. It may be supernatural chance but it is still chance.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In your view you are a slave to chance and I have shown that time and again with thought experiments. It may be supernatural chance but it is still chance.

Could you explain exactly what you think randomness is in your view?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Could you explain exactly what you think randomness is in your view?

How many times must I say it and in how many threads?
Random: without a known cause and possibly without a knowable cause or without a cause.

Now. Can you explain why in your view Hitler was not unlucky? What exactly caused him to be the way he was? Why was that not just bad luck? Your whole thread claims that determinism leads to the conclusion that Hitler was unlucky and yet you propose no alternative. In fact there can be no alternative.

Originally posted by twhitehead
How many times must I say it and in how many threads?
Random: without a known cause and possibly without a knowable cause or without a cause.

Now. Can you explain why in your view Hitler was not unlucky? What exactly caused him to be the way he was? Why was that not just bad luck? Your whole thread claims that determinism leads to the conclusion that Hitler was unlucky and yet you propose no alternative. In fact there can be no alternative.

Hitler was not "unlucky" because every man is born with the ability to become more than the sum of their parts . God knows the cards that are dealt to everyone and judges us according to what we have been given. Hitler had the opportunity somehwere along the line to overt his "destiny" and become more autonomous and self determining. The cause of this would have been his own will . He would be the cause himself through the power and potential that God gives to all of us. He chose somewhere to not make use of his ability to live a more fully humane and compassionate life.

He did not choose to be born Hitler , but he was offered a way out (as are all of us) This is the whole point of Christ coming. No-one can say to God at the end of time - " I had no way out- I was destined to do what I did because of who I was and who I was created to be . You gave me no chance to become anything else , no chance of transformation. If only I had had the power of your spirit available to me I could have changed "

God will say " I gave you the opportunity to govern your own destiny and self determine who you wanted to be. I made this possible through Christ".

Originally posted by twhitehead
How many times must I say it and in how many threads?
Random: without a known cause and possibly without a knowable cause or without a cause.

Now. Can you explain why in your view Hitler was not unlucky? What exactly caused him to be the way he was? Why was that not just bad luck? Your whole thread claims that determinism leads to the conclusion that Hitler was unlucky and yet you propose no alternative. In fact there can be no alternative.

How many times must I say it and in how many threads?
Random: without a known cause and possibly without a knowable cause or without a cause. WHITEY

Yes I know , but what do you think? Is a random event an event without a cause or is it just that we don't know the cause? We don't know exactly what causes cancer fully but we don't believe it's random. I mean do you believe that a truely uncaused event (or uncaused anything) is possible or logical?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Hitler was not "unlucky" because every man is born with the ability to become more than the sum of their parts . God knows the cards that are dealt to everyone and judges us according to what we have been given. Hitler had the opportunity somehwere along the line to overt his "destiny" and become more autonomous and self determining. The cause of this ...[text shortened]... omewhere to not make use of his ability to live a more fully humane and compassionate life.

But as that choice in question was, in your opinion, without cause, he was unlucky.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes I know , but what do you think? Is a random event an event without a cause or is it just that we don't know the cause? We don't know exactly what causes cancer fully but we don't believe it's random. I mean do you believe that a truely uncaused event (or uncaused anything) is possible or logical?

Yes I think it is possible and logical but I don't know whether or not they exist. It is however irrelevant for this discussion. If Hitlers choice was caused by something but we do not know what then he was simply unlucky as it clearly wasn't his choice!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes I think it is possible and logical but I don't know whether or not they exist. It is however irrelevant for this discussion. If Hitlers choice was caused by something but we do not know what then he was simply unlucky as it clearly wasn't his choice!

I wasn't making a point a bout Hitler I was just curious. Hitler was the cause of his own choice.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I wasn't making a point a bout Hitler I was just curious. Hitler was the cause of his own choice.

But the choice was essentially random so 'chance' was the cause of his choice not Hitler. So why would you hold him accountable under your free will but not under determinism?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But the choice was essentially random so 'chance' was the cause of his choice not Hitler. So why would you hold him accountable under your free will but not under determinism?

I'm going on holiday soon , so this may be my last response for 10 days or so . Bear this in mind across all the threads.

RESPONSE-

I did not say that his choice was uncaused but caused by himself in a self determining fashion. Other determining factors combining with his free will to select by what values he will live his life. However , in your mind you can't see anything at all between the extremes of determinism and randomness. For you it has to be one or the other. Since this is the very premise I am challenging it makes little impact to hear you restate it again and again as self evidently true (for you).

I would hold him accountable under free will because the factors that influenced his life ( hate , racism, inhumanity , etc etc) were selected by him under the awareness that another way of living was truely available to him in a real and meaningful sense ( ie compassion, humanity , beauty etc). He could have broken out of the life placed before him , but chose to "not choose" the alternative that God makes potentially available to us all. This is radically distinct from the idea that the evil he did was inevitable for him to commit from the moment of his birth and there was nothing he could do about it or could ever have done about it (your view).