Originally posted by @whodey
No, we need a shepherd.

The people of Israel voted for another human instead of their God.

How hard is that to understand?

God was willing to heed their freedom to give them what they wanted.

Conversely, once man obtains such power he never relinquishes it willingly.

So the conclusion of this tiresome conversation is that you see government as your shepherd. Correct?

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
So the conclusion of this tiresome conversation is that you see government as your shepherd. Correct?

It is A shepherd, it is not my shepherd though.

Originally posted by @whodey
As a society, we have two choices. We can either create a massive police state to impose the civil society on us, or we can have those who have freedom self enforce a moral code that maintains a civil society.

You feel that, as your second choice is currently not possible, the only alternative is a "massive police state"?

Would you like this "massive police state" to "impose the civil society on us" by banning gay sex, for instance?

Originally posted by @whodey
I say that only through God can we have the moral society that allows for a free society that also negates the need for an increasingly intrusive state to do it for us.

Do you not have morality without god?

Originally posted by @whodey
It is A shepherd, it is not my shepherd though.

But you've said (took you a while, but that seems to be your main tool of deflection) that you

- concluded that I must see government as my shepherd because I saw a need for government.
- see a need for government yourself.

Logic dictates that you see government as your shepherd, no?

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
But you've said (took you a while, but that seems to be your main tool of deflection) that you

- concluded that I must see government as my shepherd because I saw a need for government.
- see a need government yourself.

Logic dictates that you see government as your shepherd, no?

I recognize God's coming government on all men and the current one that is foreign to all human governments.

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
Do you not have morality without god?

We all have a morality. The question becomes, based upon what?

Originally posted by @whodey
I recognize God's coming government on all men and the current one that is foreign to all human governments.

I don't know what this means. Did you drop something on your keyboard and then press enter?

Logic dictates that you see government as your shepherd, right? If not, point out the flaw in my deduction.

Originally posted by @whodey
We all have a morality. The question becomes, based upon what?

Do you not have morality without god?

I don't believe in gods and other fairy tales - I am after all a grown up. Are you saying I can't have morality without god?

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
Your answer befuddles me and I agree with FMF's question.

Are you saying it would be more beneficial to get rid of government? In other words, are you an anarchist?

No, we need order and stability. A government that can do that with minimal interference the better. Our issues arise with feature creep where government controls more and more. For crying out loud they prohibit collecting rain water now in some places!

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No, we need order and stability. A government that can do that with minimal interference the better. Our issues arise with feature creep where government controls more and more. For crying out loud they prohibit collecting rain water now in some places!

According to Whodey, if you see a need for a government, you must see that government as your shepherd.

Do you see government as your shepherd, Kelly?

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
According to Whodey, if you see a need for a government, you must see that government as your shepherd.

Do you see government as your shepherd, Kelly?

It is one to an existent in my opinion; we have something or someone we put above all. From every man does what is right in their own eyes, some leader, doctrine, God and so on. Where the rubber hits the road is when controlling authorities clash!

I don't want to bake that cake, why do I have to wear clothes, there was no traffic 90 mph should be okay, they wanted to have sex why should age matter, he did the crime kill him, and on and on!

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
According to Whodey, if you see a need for a government, you must see that government as your shepherd.

Do you see government as your shepherd, Kelly?

You can historically see how government shapes the morality of the public

For example, before slavery was outlawed it was generally accepted, although not seen as ideal. However, centuries of being made illegal, the notion of slavery seems absurdly immoral

Likewise, before abortion was made legal, it was generally though of a immoral. However, after decades of being legal, it is seen as OK, even though not ideal.

We, as a society, are lemmings. This is because we naturally adopt the morality of a perceived authority figure we respect.

As for myself, I respect more the authority of my God than man, so it matters little what laws they pass to praise such practices of abortion, I don't bite.

Originally posted by @whodey
You can historically see how government shapes the morality of the public

For example, before slavery was outlawed it was generally accepted, although not seen as ideal. However, centuries of being made illegal, the notion of slavery seems absurdly immoral

Likewise, before abortion was made legal, it was generally though of a immoral. However, after ...[text shortened]... an, so it matters little what laws they pass to praise such practices of abortion, I don't bite.

You feel that, as your second choice is currently not possible, the only alternative is a "massive police state"?

Would you like this "massive police state" to "impose the civil society on us" by banning gay sex, for instance?

Originally posted by @whodey
You can historically see how government shapes the morality of the public

For example, before slavery was outlawed it was generally accepted, although not seen as ideal. However, centuries of being made illegal, the notion of slavery seems absurdly immoral

Likewise, before abortion was made legal, it was generally though of a immoral. However, after ...[text shortened]... an, so it matters little what laws they pass to praise such practices of abortion, I don't bite.

It is of course the other way around, stoopid.

Many people - people oh, so, so, so very much smarter than you - understood that having an abortion is not an immoral act and as more people began to understand this (retards like yourself, of course, still are fumbling around in the dark) abortion in many places was made legal. The law followed a change in morality.