Philosophical nonsense

Originally posted by JS357
I asked for Biblical support of the notion that space was not created. Your reference to the Holy Spirit is IMO, inadequate. Your answer also suggests a belief that time was not created. Given you are a theist, these are rather basic theological positions that IMO need a foundation.

I have no degree in theology, so I can not give you the needed
theological foundation you are seeking. I am sorry if the Holy
Spirit is not good enough for you. As far as I know the Holy
Bible does not indicate that space was created or not created,
so I can not help you there either. However, I do believe that
the idea of time was created by God when he designed the
Heavens and the earth. But I must believe the Holy Spirit over
man. So I repeat space has always existed and there is an
unlimited amount of it. So any idea that a "big Bang" created
space is false.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What you are really scared of is the fact that God began time
by creating the Heavens and the earth and at the end you
will have to answer to God for all you have done.

Run out of logical arguments have you?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no degree in theology, so I can not give you the needed
theological foundation you are seeking. I am sorry if the Holy
Spirit is not good enough for you. As far as I know the Holy
Bible does not indicate that space was created or not created,
so I can not help you there either. However, I do believe that
the idea of time was created by God whe ...[text shortened]... d there is an
unlimited amount of it. So any idea that a "big Bang" created
space is false.

Thanks anyway. I don't recall having any knowledge come my way that I ascribe to the Holy Spirit, but of course I can't speak for you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Apparently you did not review the lecture by Stephen Hawking
on the beginning of time that I posted a link to earlier on this
thread or do not understand deep scientific thinking. Hawking
indicates in his lecture that the idea that the universe and time
had a beginning is now taken for granted by all physicist. But
I do see how space and time can be co ...[text shortened]... erence point to another. I know this may be
difficult to understand, so don't worry about it.

If this is "deep scientific thinking", I really don't want to be a part of it🙂

Anyway, Hawking never said that "time has a beginning". In fact, it is impossible to reach t=0 regarding the so called "creation of the universe"...
So let it be😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Due to the fact that phenomena-in-flux is a given, the concept of time is an empty product of our mind and it does not exist on its own. We are using the concept of time for our convenience in order to become able to study the constant changing of the phenomena; however there is no such a thing as a flux-in-phenomena. Flux-in-phenomena is just another d ...[text shortened]... and they do not exist "somewhere out there" separated from our collective subjectivity
😵

And concepts like the "laws of nature", "high entropy" etc. are just side-notes on a mapping of ours and they do not exist "somewhere out there" separated from our collective subjectivity

The concept of a law and the law itself are two different things. In so far as our models accurately represent the laws of nature they are mind-independent.

Originally posted by Palynka
I agree it's not nonsensical, but it's also not necessary. One possibility is if time is infinite in both directions. But even if time is bounded towards the post, it is not necessarily so that there is a beginning of time in strict sense. That is, that a t=0 exists ss not necessary. See my post regarding the possibility of the support of time being an open ...[text shortened]... every point in time t, there is a t'<t, but still time would be bounded from the left (past).

That sounds ad hoc to me.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Those are ways man has come up with to measure the amount
of space. For example we csn tell someone how much cubic
centimeters or cubic inches is inside a box. But we determine
what method of measurement we will use so the other person
understands. Unlike time, space has always existed. It does
not require the sun, moon, earth, stars and light, like ...[text shortened]... when the universe was created by God.
Space was not created because it always existed with God.

Space was not created because it always existed with God.

I don't think there is any scientific or biblical support for this idea.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Space was not created because it always existed with God.

I don't think there is any scientific or biblical support for this idea.[/b]

You are absolutely right! There is no scientific or biblical
support for the fact that space was not created because it
always existed with God. There is also no scientific or
biblical support for space being created.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are absolutely right! There is no scientific or biblical
support for the fact that space was not created because it
always existed with God. There is also no scientific or
biblical support for space being created.

There is also no scientific or
biblical support for space being created.

Consider:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:1-3).

and:

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth" (John 4:24).

God is defined, biblically, as "spirit"—i.e., a being without physical dimension. But "space" undoubtedly has at least three physical dimensions. According to the bible, then, God cannot be coeternal with space, and would precede space in so far as anything that is not God must have been created by God. Since it is clear that space isn't necessary to God (in so far as God is a spirit lacking physical dimension), it follows (see John 1 above) that space does not share God's eternal nature either.

On the contrary, then, there is biblical support for the contingent nature of space.

EDIT: The scientific support for the beginning of space is the exact same support one would cite for the beginning of time (and I seem to remember you agreeing with me regarding the scientific support for the beginning of time).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b] There is also no scientific or
biblical support for space being created.

Consider:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:1-3).

and:

[quote]"God is spiri ...[text shortened]... mber you agreeing with me regarding the scientific support for the beginning of time).[/b]

I don't see anything about space in your quote. Since space was
not made, it would not be included in all things because space is
not a thing. Webster's New World Dictonary defines space as the
continuous, boundless expanse extending in all directions or in three
dimensions, within which all things exit. Note the word boundless,
which means in has no limits. Space is not a thing that God could
make and space in unlimited and eternal because it was not made.
Space has no beginning or end. Space is where God made the heavens
and the earth and where God is.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't see anything about space in your quote. Since space was
not made, it would not be included in all things because space is
not a thing. Webster's New World Dictonary defines space as the
continuous, boundless expanse extending in all directions or in three
dimensions, within which all things exit. Note the word boundless,
which means in has no ...[text shortened]... has no beginning or end. Space is where God made the heavens
and the earth and where God is.

But, remember, God does not require space to exist.

Further, if God exists in space, as you suggest, then God must be a physical being, which does not jive with the biblical concept of God (as spirit).

Originally posted by RJHinds
What you are really scared of is the fact that God began time
by creating the Heavens and the earth and at the end you
will have to answer to God for all you have done.

How can someone who doesn't believe that this 'god' exists be scared of what 'he' would do to him in some kind of 'afterlife'? That makes no sense whatsoever. You claim is logically incoherent.

Is the real reason why you don't believe in the spaghetti monster is because you are scared of what 'he' would do to you in some kind of 'afterlife'?.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
But, remember, God does not require space to exist.

Further, if God exists in space, as you suggest, then God must be a physical being, which does not jive with the biblical concept of God (as spirit).

God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You say God is
Spirit and does not requires space to exist because He has no physical
dimensions. What about spiritual dimensions? Is not the Son
of God both physical an spiritual? Why can not space exist with
God without being God and why must His spirit need space for
space to have always existed with God?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]And concepts like the "laws of nature", "high entropy" etc. are just side-notes on a mapping of ours and they do not exist "somewhere out there" separated from our collective subjectivity

The concept of a law and the law itself are two different things. In so far as our models accurately represent the laws of nature they are mind-independent.[/b]

Any law itself is always mind-dependent, my dear Monk😵

Originally posted by RJHinds
God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You say God is
Spirit and does not requires space to exist because He has no physical
dimensions. What about spiritual dimensions? Is not the Son
of God both physical an spiritual? Why can not space exist with
God without being God and why must His spirit need space for
space to have always existed with God?

Is not the Son of God both physical an spiritual?

Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Word was indeed physical and spiritual. That said, before the Incarnation and since the Resurrection, Jesus was/is a purely spiritual being.

Why can not space exist with God without being God...

The answer to that question depends on your concept of God. Pantheism, for instance, is the belief that the universe is an extension of God's being. While orthodox Christianity conceptualizes God as distinct from the universe.

...and why must His spirit need space for space to have always existed with God?

If space has always existed, then it must be true that space was never created—by God or anything else. If space was never created, then it shares with God the attribute of a necessary being—i.e., an eternal nature. So, if we grant that there can be only one necessary being, either space itself is the only necessary being, or space is an attribute of the only necessary being. It is obvious that space itself is not God, therefore space must be an attribute of God.

But, according to the Bible at least, God is spirit—i.e., decidedly spaceless.