path to truth

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No our grasp of truth doesn’t change truth only our opinions of it. You could be completely convinced of something, be wrong about it to the point where lives are lost.
...

Truth is reality. So you are right as rain. Faith belief in creator gods comes to mind.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No our grasp of truth doesn’t change truth only our opinions of it. You could be completely convinced of something, be wrong about it to the point where lives are lost.

Even Jesus told us we needed eyes to see, and in a discussion with someone who claimed that they understood something, that because of that claim that they could see, they would have no excuses.

So kelly, we agree to oppose bigotry.

Originally posted by @apathist
Truth is reality. So you are right as rain. Faith belief in creator gods comes to mind.

So?

Originally posted by @apathist
So kelly, we agree to oppose bigotry.

You have a point?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Yes, reality changes not however due to your thoughts. With both God and the universe,
they are what they are. Your knowledge of either changes as the manifestation of both
drives you to constantly evaluate everything once you realize they are not what you
thought or hoped.

It is you, not the universe around you that is deeply affected by your though ...[text shortened]... cult at this time, since you reject He is
real at all, so currently it is a low bar for you. 🙂

You keep up distorting whatever I say and you attempt to deflect my clear questions. You keep up repeating that reality does not change due to my thoughts, and you try to make a case as if it is me the one who made this suggestion, when clearly this is not the case, because I never said such a thing. Why is that?
If you really have the feeling that I said "reality changes due to my or anybody's thoughts", kindly please quote the post of mine where I said that.

Back on track: I told you again and again that there is no reality available to us human beings other than the one verified by us herenow as the product of our reliable subjective impressions and our verified in practice herenow evaluations of the mind. Solely this kind of reality is considered "objective" by us, and it is strictly grounded on our collective subjectivity.
So, Kellyjay, if you think there is any other reality than that, and if you are sure that you can comment ...objectively (the way you mean it) as regards this condition, or as regards the "objective" way you came to know about the "grand truth of the universe" without using your own purely subjective mental activity, kindly please expand😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
You keep up distorting whatever I say and you attempt to deflect my clear questions. You keep up repeating that reality does not change due to my thoughts, and you try to make a case as if it is me the one who made this suggestion, when clearly this is not the case, because I never said such a thing. Why is that?
If you really have the feeling that I ...[text shortened]... f the universe" without using your own purely subjective mental activity, kindly please expand😵

In our discussions of faith, you renounced it, proclaiming you do not walk in faith instead
you walk by knowledge you have after careful evaluation. So you have been proclaiming
you define all, not by what you believe in, what you put faith in, instead you gather new
information, old information, compile what you have and walk in the light of your
knowledge not in faith. So you look at the world in the mind's conclusions, so that you do
not have to walk in faith, but instead what you know.

You are telling me what now, you do not look at the universe and with your mind to sort it
all out to walk in knowledge, but in faith, maybe I have not understood you, that is very
possible. This is how I have been receiving what you have been telling me.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
In our discussions of faith, you renounced it, proclaiming you do not walk in faith instead
you walk by knowledge you have after careful evaluation. So you have been proclaiming
you define all, not by what you believe in, what you put faith in, instead you gather new
information, old information, compile what you have and walk in the light of your
know ...[text shortened]... od you, that is very
possible. This is how I have been receiving what you have been telling me.

Edit: '''In our discussions... ...what you know."

This is indeed what I told you.
But his ain't mean, as you falsely conclude, that the reality per se (which is purely subjectively perceived and deciphered by my mind) changes according to my volition or to the products of my sensemaking mechanism.
It simply means that what is ever-changing are solely the products of the evaluation of my mind and thus my sensemaking products about the nature of the perceived by me reality. This process of constant change takes place by means of the evaluation of the mind, in which Faith is not required.
An example: In the past, we used to hold as true the "fact" that the Sun was orbiting around the Earth. Today, this is neither a fact, nor is considered "true" by us. All in all, as regards this issue the reality is by and large the same in the past and today, but our perception and sensemking about its exact nature and the related to it causal fields has indeed change. This change of our understanding is brought up strictly by means of the evaluation of the mind on the basis of scientific facts and evidence alone, which is clearly a process that does not require faith.


Edit: You are telling me what now, you do not look at the universe and with your mind to sort it all out to walk in knowledge, but in faith, maybe I have not understood you, that is very possible. This is how I have been receiving what you have been telling me.

No I do not say this thing, as I explained you just above.
😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: '''In our discussions... ...what you know."

This is indeed what I told you.
But his ain't mean, as you falsely conclude, that the reality per se (which is purely subjectively perceived and deciphered by my mind) changes according to my volition or to the products of my sensemaking mechanism.
It simply means that what is ever-changing are so ...[text shortened]... what you have been telling me.

No I do not say this thing, as I explained you just above.
😵

"It simply means that what is ever-changing are solely the products of the evaluation of my mind and thus my sensemaking products about the nature of the perceived by me reality."

So you are telling me I'm wrong by repeating the very thing I said you are doing,
you are looking at the universe around you, you perceive reality by your sense
making. Instead of acknowledging again reality doesn't require you or your
evaluation, you insist upon saying your reality is what you make it by your own
perceptions. Reality doesn't rest with us, instead perceptions, points of view, and
so on rests between our ears.

I agree we can both look around and announce our findings, that is done by
everyone in and out of religion and science. Still our beliefs/conclusions come
about by what we think, so it is still something we do in our thoughts alone. That
does not mean reality is what we think it to be by observation or anything else.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
"It simply means that what is ever-changing are solely the products of the evaluation of my mind and thus my sensemaking products about the nature of the perceived by me reality."

So you are telling me I'm wrong by repeating the very thing I said you are doing,
you are looking at the universe around you, you perceive reality by your sense
making. Inst ...[text shortened]... ts alone. That
does not mean reality is what we think it to be by observation or anything else.

Edit: So you are... ...rests between our ears."

You still do not understand me, it is perhaps my Greek American broken English.
You are almost accurate when you say you are repeating the very thing you said I am doing, arguing that I am looking at the universe around me, and adding that I perceive reality by my sensemaking mechanism. Almost, because I do not perceive this and that and whatever else thanks to my sensemaking mechanism, but strictly thanks to the mental mechanism on which my 6 senses are grounded; my sensmaking mechanism is grounded on the evaluation of the mind as regards the products of my 6 senses; my sensemaking mechanism does not require faith during mine process of the evaluation of the mind; needless to add (but I do so in order to clarify even deeper my process) that the whole mental activities mechanism of mine is not grounded somewhere out of my own pure subjectivity. So, in the way I perceive and in the way I decipher reality, never is existent even the slightest trace of objectivity.

However your rest assumption does not reflect my approach.
I say reality does require yours (and mine, and anybody's) ever-changing evaluation as regards one's (purely subjective under any circumstances) understanding about its exact nature and the causal field on which its exact nature is grounded. Because there is no other reality available to us than the one we conceive subjectively, which is then explained at that specific given spacetime by our sensemaking mechanism on the basis of the (purely subjectively perceived by us) interaction between our purely subjective knowledge as regards the Physical World that surrounds us, the reality of our Inner World and the reality of our World of Ideas.

Therefore:
In my case, my sensemaking mechanism is based on the evaluation of the mind alone and therefore faith is not required. This is My path to My (purely subjective) truth.

In Your case, your (purely subjective) evaluation of the mind includes mental constructions grounded solely on the basis of faith, and therefore your sensemaking mechanism provides outcomes that are grounded on the basis of faith that are projected from the religious doctrine which you accept blindly as absolutely true. This is Your path to Your (purely subkective) truth.

No big deal😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: So you are... ...rests between our ears."

You still do not understand me, it is perhaps my Greek American broken English.
You are almost accurate when you say you are repeating the very thing you said I am doing, arguing that I am looking at the universe around me, and adding that I perceive reality by my sensemaking mechanism. Almost, becaus ...[text shortened]... indly as absolutely true. This is Your path to Your (purely subkective) truth.

No big deal😵

There is a huge difference between us and how you are describing it. With respect what you’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes different due to you. I am claiming that is not possible, because I can only change my mind not reality itself.

I don’t own reality so it never changes as my views on any topic change. Example before I became a Christian I didn’t believe in God, the reality of if God was real or not didn’t change the universe because I didn’t believe there wasn’t a God! Then the whole universe became filled with God, because I now believed in one! Only my beliefs, opinions, world views what goes on between the ears changed, then subsequently my life and faith changed

The reality of God to be real or not is not dependent upon man in either direction, just as there is a dark side of the moon when no one sees it.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
There is a huge difference between us and how you are describing it. With respect what you’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes different due to you. I am claiming that is not possible, because I can only change my mind not reality itself.

I don’t own reality so it never changes as my views on any topic change. Example before I ...[text shortened]... dent upon man in either direction, just as there is a dark side of the moon when no one sees it.

Edit: “With respect what you’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes different due to you.”


I really don't know why you keep up coming with this false assumption, and then start to tackle this untenable approach as if it were an accurate reflection of my view.

I do not claim, and never claimed, that the ever-changing reality becomes different due to my mental activities. Also, clearly my process is not grounded on the false assumption that reality can become different thanks to one’s mental activity and opinions about it.

I say that my perception about the nature of (the perceived by my own 6 senses) reality is strictly a product of my sensemaking mechanism. This product of mine is ever-changing (in the light of new, validated herenow data, facts and evidence) strictly on the basis of the evaluation of the mind. No faith required. Of course my perception, my 6 senses, all the products of the evaluation of my mind, and my sensemaking mechanism, are all purely subjective.

I argue that you, and I, and every other sentient being is forced to perceive reality solely through this purely subjective mechanism. “Objectivity” other than just our consensus over our collective subjectivity, is nowhere to be found. If you think there is some other “objective” mechanism available, kindly please expand😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: “With respect what you’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes different due to you.”


I really don't know why you keep up coming with this false assumption, and then start to tackle this untenable approach as if it were an accurate reflection of my view.

I do not claim, and never claimed, that the ever-changing real ...[text shortened]... found. If you think there is some other “objective” mechanism available, kindly please expand😵

"Because there is no other reality available to us than the one we conceive subjectively, which is then explained at that specific given spacetime by our sensemaking mechanism on the basis of the (purely subjectively perceived by us) interaction between our purely subjective knowledge as regards the Physical World that surrounds us, the reality of our Inner World and the reality of our World of Ideas. "

You seem quite clear here still, there is no reality other than the one we conceive.
Our conceptions, still are filtered by us, they are not true reflections of reality, they say
more about us than the outside world.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
"Because there is no other reality available to us than the one we conceive subjectively, which is then explained at that specific given spacetime by our sensemaking mechanism on the basis of the (purely subjectively perceived by us) interaction between our purely subjective knowledge as regards the Physical World that surrounds us, the reality of our Inne ...[text shortened]... by us, they are not true reflections of reality, they say
more about us than the outside world.

Kindly please read again my phrases you just quoted!

I said " ...there is no other reality AVAILABLE TO US than the one we conceive subjectively... " etc., etc. I said not that there is no reality other than the one we conceive.

Therefore, when you say “With respect what you ’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes different due to you”, and when you repeat it right now once more, I cannot see how and by what means you justify this false assumption of yours.

I am not doing what you think I am doing.
On the contrary, what I am doing is to acknowledge that one can make statements about reality strictly on the basis of the specific, partial, purely subjective reality one perceives; because one’s perception is based strictly on one’s senses, which are also as subjective as it gets. The same holds as regards one’s sensemaking mechanism; and the same holds as regards the products of one’s sensemaking mechanism.

In fact, what I am doing is to acknowledge the existence of pure subjectivity all the way down in the core of the sensemaking mental activities of every single one sentient being. No faith required.
As a consequence, I acknowledge countless (purely subjective under all the circumstances) mental projections as regards fractals only of the Single One Ever-Changing Reality, on which are grounded all the countless projections from the sentient beings that perceive it always partly –because their mental activities mechanism does not allow for an holistic perception of the Single One Ever-Changing Reality.

As a consequence, I acknowledge that there are as many realities (all of them rooted on the Single One Ever-Changing Reality, and all of them true) as many are the sentient beings that conceive, evaluate and decipher them according to their nature😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Kindly please read again my phrases you just quoted!

I said " ...there is no other reality AVAILABLE TO US than the one we conceive subjectively... " etc., etc. I said not that there is no reality other than the one we conceive.

Therefore, when you say “With respect what you ’re doing is owning your views of reality as if reality becomes differen ...[text shortened]... ny are the sentient beings that conceive, evaluate and decipher them according to their nature😵

The universe is available to us, but still, it is us who look at it with the filters we possess
that is our lives, it isn't that we get don't get clear picture of it, we just don't grasp it, we see
it all as though through a glass darkly, because of our filters. If we didn't we would never
have to alter our views once we have made our judgments.

So it is as I have been telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that
is you, as do we all.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The universe is available to us, but still, it is us who look at it with the filters we possess
that is our lives, it isn't that we get don't get clear picture of it, we just don't grasp it, we see
it all as though through a glass darkly, because of our filters. If we didn't we would never
have to alter our views once we have made our judgments.

So i ...[text shortened]... telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that
is you, as do we all.

Edit: “The universe… …because of our filters.”


This is not the case.
For one, there are no other “filters” than our own purely subjective mind and the purely subjective products of the evaluation of our mind.

For two, it is not properly said that “we get clear picture”, because whatever we do see “clearly” does not mean that our evaluation about the “picture” –in other words, our evaluation about the exact nature of the issue we happen to examine– is accurate. In here, Faith is not required. The sole factor required is the proper conduct of the evaluation of the mind –and the same holds for all the theories of reality we use in order to evaluate accurately the nature of whatever we perceive. This factor alone enables us to recognize the scientifically viable herenow theories of reality, and to discard the theories of reality which are not justified because they are not grounded on scientific facts and evidence😵