Original Sin and the Clovis People

Originally posted by Suzianne
Okay, name one species bigger than the bison that was endemic to North America.

During the time of man, of course. And that was somehow driven to extinction by man.

Er... mammoth? They were quite big. There's even a word named after them, meaning really, really big, called, er... mammoth.

Of course your final caveat could be used to exclude the mammoth from the discussion on the grounds that we don't actually know that they were driven to extinction by man, but we do know that they were hunted by using Clovis tech, and that they became extinct not long after humans spread through the Americas.

Originally posted by menace71
I would say yes something is wrong with man 🙂 All kidding aside why do we have evil? Recorded history shows that evil has been around since the beginning of recorded history and we can't eradicate it



Manny

To expand on this further, writing (recorded history) and private property (a result of the agricultural revolution) have been around for a mere 10,000 years or less. This amounts to less than 5% of the history of modern humans. But people somehow assume that recorded history is the sum total of human history, or that it represents humanity in its "true" state. It does not.

The way people have lived during their brief recorded history is decidedly at odds with how the human species evolved to live, i.e. as small, nomadic bands of gatherer/scavenger/hunters (in that order). That is the state mankind evolved in. It is the state he lived in for 95% of his history. What is recorded in history is mankind removed from that state by being placed into sedentary, densely packed, agricultural communities. It is an unnatural and pathological state that lends itself to all manner of behavioral disorders. As such, civilization itself is a pathological state. It has many beneficial effects, to be sure, but at a terrible cost. For it has made "evil" an ever present reality in human affairs.

The important point, though, is that evil is not inherent to mankind. It was introduced to mankind by his being placed into the pathological condition of civilization.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I think I read it was because they had more advanced digestive systems than other big animals idk

Oddly enough I've just been reading about this. It makes good sense in view of the changes in flora taking place at the same time as the spread of human population.

Originally posted by e4chris
i dunno but they hunted a lot of mammoths, i'm not expert in them... thing is i'm sure scientists must agree a shift in human evolution, when we started to rely more on tools then any evolved advantage, we slowed down evolving and speeded up learning. and very quickly, in evolutionary terms changed the planet, wiping out any animal that was vaguely interesting / large

Except elephants. And giraffes. And tigers. And saltwater crocs. And aurochs. Well ok, we did do the aurochs, but not right away. Few other big 'uns still around too. And some interesting ones. I've always liked hippos myself.

Actually all those megafauna were pushed to the brink by climate change, so they didn't take much extinctioning. What? No, of course that's a word.

The animals in places like the Americas were vulnerable for the same reason the people were - they were cut off from the old world and werent adapted to living around humans. Old world animals have been hunted by humans for hundreds of thousands of years.

Originally posted by rwingett
To expand on this further, writing (recorded history) and private property (a result of the agricultural revolution) have been around for a mere 10,000 years or less. This amounts to less than 5% of the history of modern humans. But people somehow assume that recorded history is the sum total of human history, or that it represents humanity in its "true" st ...[text shortened]... s introduced to mankind by his being placed into the pathological condition of civilization.

Or to put it another way: Mankind didn't leave the Garden because he was cursed. Mankind was cursed because he left the Garden.

Originally posted by rwingett
. What is recorded in history is mankind removed from that state by being placed into sedentary, densely packed, agricultural communities. It is an unnatural and pathological state that lends itself to all manner of behavioral disorders. As such, civilization itself is a pathological state. It has many beneficial effects, to be sure, but at a terrible cost. was introduced to mankind by his being placed into the pathological condition of civilization.

Thats a very interesting point,

i read this book about crocodiles, when they overpopulate an area, most of them are kept in a state of perpetual adolescence, they only grow as big as there food supply, only a few get big enough to breed. I think society keeps us like that, they say dogs and cats are like that. but i think so are we.

Originally posted by e4chris
Thats a very interesting point,

i read this book about crocodiles, when they overpopulate an area, most of them are kept in a state of perpetual adolescence, they only grow as big as there food supply, only a few get big enough to breed. I think society keeps us like that, they say dogs and cats are like that. but i think so are we.

In all other species, the limits of the food supply limits their population growth. By learning to control his own food supply, mankind has removed any environmental controls on his population. The result has been exponential growth. That has been a blessing on the one hand, and a curse on the other. Mankind has learned how to control his own destiny, but has, at the same time, placed himself into a decidedly unhealthy relationship with the rest of nature.

Originally posted by rwingett
In all other species, the limits of the food supply limits their population growth. By learning to control his own food supply, mankind has removed any environmental controls on his population. The result has been exponential growth. That has been a blessing on the one hand, and a curse on the other. Mankind has learned how to control his own destiny, but h ...[text shortened]... t the same time, placed himself into a decidedly unhealthy relationship with the rest of nature.

90% of the nitrogen in our bodies from a haber factory, processed food, no smoking.

One of the biggest sins of the 20th century was CFCs, if we hadn't wised up to them, and they were seemingly innocuous chemicals back then, we would be in serious trouble / extinct.

Originally posted by e4chris
90% of the nitrogen in our bodies from a haber factory, processed food, no smoking.

One of the biggest sins of the 20th century was CFCs, if we hadn't wised up to them, and they were seemingly innocuous chemicals back then, we would be in serious trouble / extinct.

Technology has unleashed mankind's capacity for "sin." CFCs are but one example in a long and escalating series of abuses that threaten to push mankind over the brink of destruction. The means for actuating his salvation, though, are close at hand. As you're from Scotland, you may be familiar with the Findhorn Ecovillage. That is the template for "the Kingdom" in the 21st century.

http://www.ecovillagefindhorn.com/index.php

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
They were pretty far from the biggest of the megafauna. It is curious how they managed to dodge the bullet though.

Just seen a documentary,Last Extinction(Sky-Eden HD). It suggests a mini ice age about 10000 years ago coinciding with the disapearance of the Clovis culture.Maybe Bison were tough enough to survive it?

Originally posted by rwingett
Technology has unleashed mankind's capacity for "sin." CFCs are but one example in a long and escalating series of abuses that threaten to push mankind over the brink of destruction. The means for actuating his salvation, though, are close at hand. As you're from Scotland, you may be familiar with the Findhorn Ecovillage. That is the template for "the Kingdom" in the 21st century.

http://www.ecovillagefindhorn.com/index.php

i was hoping for flying cars!

Originally posted by rwingett
Recorded history is only a small portion of human existence.

..and accurately recorded history is even smaller .

Originally posted by rwingett
you may be familiar with the Findhorn Ecovillage. That is the template for "the Kingdom" in the 21st century.

http://www.ecovillagefindhorn.com/index.php

regarding the findhorn ecovillage, to be honest i dispair when i see things like that, its quaint, they have 4 wind turbines, how green, i bet they can't power there washing machine, let alone the central heating. they love wind turbines in scotland. I thought of an invention after seeing that, the eco-hat, a hat with a wind turbine on it, that charges your laptop or ipod, you could wear it riding a bike.

its happened already.... darn

http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2010-03-30/beanie_24093618