07 Nov 08
1 edit
please can any of the 'Christians state where this idea is in scripture, for i myself have searched for it, yet it remains elusive, furthermore it seems like a license for every type of debauchery and immorality imaginable, for if we are once saved and always saved, we can do what we like, right? regards Robbie.
07 Nov 08
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieSave yourself the time. It doesn't exist.
please can any of the 'Christians state where this idea is in scripture, for i myself have searched for it, yet it remains elusive, furthermore it seems like a license for every type of debauchery and immorality imaginable, for if we are once saved and always saved, we can do what we like, right? regards Robbie.
08 Nov 08
7 edits
Originally posted by NemesioCouldn't it depend on the tense of the verb in John 3:16?
Save yourself the time. It doesn't exist.
If "believes" is taken to be perfect rather than progressive, then it indicates that somebody who believes one time -- that is, starts believing and then finishes believing, like a child might believe in Santa Claus and then be done with it -- shall have eternal life. Similarly, couldn't the verb in question mean merely "to come to believe," with the actual persistence of the resulting belief having no relevance, in which case the verse would also entail "once saved, always saved"?
On the other hand, if the verb is progressive, it is not clear when the believing must start, or if it could ever end, in order to qualify for the correspondent salvation. Does the believing have to start immediately upon attaining the capacity to form beliefs? May it begin on one's death bed? Does it have to continue until brain death? May the believing stop at the onset of dementia, or at the physical loss of a portion of the cerebral cortex where the belief is physically manifest?
Of course if the latter case holds -- the progressive rather than the perfect tense -- nobody could ever conclude that he is currently saved, since the continued persistence of the belief would remain a necessary condition yet to be fulfilled. The best one could do is to say that he expects (under uncertainty) to keep believing and thus expects to be saved eventually once he has maintained the belief past wherever the finish line lies, which would presumably be at some point beyond the current moment of introspection about salvation.
08 Nov 08
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf someone believes that he can lose his salvation, he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).
please can any of the 'Christians state where this idea is in scripture, for i myself have searched for it, yet it remains elusive, furthermore it seems like a license for every type of debauchery and immorality imaginable, for if we are once saved and always saved, we can do what we like, right? regards Robbie.
There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4_6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27_28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21_23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38_39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.
Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn’t dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation. The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).
This topic makes for a healthy debate, but usually for naught.
Personally, the friendship one cultivates with God through prayer and Bible reading, fellowship and worship, is what I think is most important. Salvation isn't just about "getting into heaven," it's first and foremost about living in God's kingdom, which exists in the present moment (Mark 1:15).
To partner with the Lord in this present moment, in Christ, is truly to be God's friend. It is ridiculous to think that God might reject a man on judgment day whom the Lord calls a "friend." Right? Our focus should not be on whether we are going to heaven or not, our focus should instead be on faithfully relying upon the Lord in this present moment; pursuing Him with all our might, for Christ says that without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).
08 Nov 08
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The argument for once saved/always saved is two-fold. First, it is said that since Jesus promises us eternal life if we accept Him as our personal Savior--and if we do this, and later we could somehow lose that salvation, then "eternal" doesn't mean eternal at all--it means nothing at all. (That is NOT my preferred argument for the position.)
The second one involves the passage about God having all of His children securely in the palm of His hand, and that they may in no ways be "plucked out". That's the one I take comfort in, although the anti-OSAS crowd claims that one could still "choose" to "leap out" of God's hand, thus somehow disproving once-saved/always saved. That's a pretty weak comeback, but there you have it, in a nutshell. 😏
08 Nov 08
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Originally posted by DoctorScribbles"Jesus, you need more than a refresher. You need to start from scratch. " Dr. Sribbles
Couldn't it depend on the tense of the verb in John 3:16?
If "believes" is taken to be perfect rather than progressive, then it indicates that somebody who believes one time -- that is, starts believing and then finishes believing, like a child might believe in Santa Claus and then be done with it -- shall have eternal life. Similarly, couldn't t presumably be at some point beyond the current moment of introspection about salvation.
Can one who lifts up the name of Jesus in vain as a curse word, such as you have done, be trusted to interpret the New Testament ?
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by jaywillExcellent observation. I have seen this done over and over on this forum, and it nullifies everything else the person has said in support of his interpretation, in my opinion.
[b]"Jesus, you need more than a refresher. You need to start from scratch. " Dr. Sribbles
Can one who lifts up the name of Jesus in vain as a curse word, such as you have done, be trusted to interpret the New Testament ?[/b]
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by ale1552I guess you guys are off the work for addressing the points I raised. Nice play. I feel so nullified!
Excellent observation. I have seen this done over and over on this forum, and it nullifies everything else the person has said in support of his interpretation, in my opinion.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieColossians 2:10
please can any of the 'Christians state where this idea is in scripture, for i myself have searched for it, yet it remains elusive, furthermore it seems like a license for every type of debauchery and immorality imaginable, for if we are once saved and always saved, we can do what we like, right? regards Robbie.
"And ye are complete in Him,..."
The study of the doctrine concerning eternal security, in my opinion, can be sumed up in this verse.
The salvation that is now made available to us by what Chriat did on the cross on our behalf is a complete salvation. There's nothing more to be added to it or taken away from it.
When one has this salvation one is complete. It's a complete salvation. Fully saved. Totally saved. Forever saved.
How else then would one be "complete" if one could lose it?
08 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydIf salvation is conditional, then it's not free.
it is said that since Jesus promises us eternal life if we accept Him as our personal Savior
You are proposing the following model 'If you believe, then you get
saved.' This is a condition. If you break the condition, then what follows
is not necessarily guaranteed.
Furthermore, 'belief' is ill defined; what does 'belief' entail and how is
maintained?
Nemesio
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by ale1552What if DoctorScribbles had genuinely confessed Jesus Christ as his Lord
Excellent observation. I have seen this done over and over on this forum, and it nullifies everything else the person has said in support of his interpretation, in my opinion.
and Savior say three years ago?
Now he's 'cursing' Jesus (you opine). Is he saved?
Nemesio
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by josephwSo there are no conditions. All people are saved irrespective of whether
The salvation that is now made available to us by what Chriat did on the cross on our behalf is a complete salvation. There's nothing more to be added to it or taken away from it.
When one has this salvation one is complete. It's a complete salvation. Fully saved. Totally saved. Forever saved.
How else then would one be "complete" if one could lose it?
they believe it. Jesus died on the cross. The end. Everyone is saved.
Even DoctorScribbles who 'cursed' Jesus.
Or is that not what you meant? Did you mean that there was a condition?
If there is a condition, then what is that condition? Do you only have to
meet that condition once?
If so, maybe DoctorScribbles met that condition three years ago, in which
case, no matter what, he is saved even if he 'curses' Jesus every single
day.
Or does one have to constantly meet that condition, which means if he
meets it three years ago but refuses to meet it today, he had it and
lost it.
Nemesio
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by NemesioThere is little point in debating this issue with you since you throw out any books of the Bible I would reference to prove my position.
So there are no conditions. All people are saved irrespective of whether
they believe it. Jesus died on the cross. The end. Everyone is saved.
Even DoctorScribbles who 'cursed' Jesus.
Or is that not what you meant? Did you mean that there was a condition?
If there is a condition, then what is that condition? Do you only have to
meet that condi ...[text shortened]... e
meets it three years ago but refuses to meet it today, he had it and
lost it.
Nemesio
Unfortunately you think that you can act as an independent agent in your effort to gain salvation.
You don't seem to realize how hopeless your condition is. Until you are saved, you are lost. If you are lost, how are you going to find your way?
Conditions? The law was given for the purpose of establishing God's righteous standard. It is abundantly evident that no one can meet the requirement of the Law. Jesus met the requirement of the law perfectly. He did so and suffered and died and rose from the dead because God knew we couldn't keep the law, and so Jesus became the sacrifice to satisfy God's requirement for the breaking of the law. Death.
Any conditions one seeks to meet for forgiveness of sin is a slap in the face of Jesus.
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by josephwwait a minute, i thought that Christ came to die for our sins, that we can get forgiveness for our sins on the basis of Christs sacrifice, is this not the case or am i missing something?
There is little point in debating this issue with you since you throw out any books of the Bible I would reference to prove my position.
Unfortunately you think that you can act as an independent agent in your effort to gain salvation.
You don't seem to realize how hopeless your condition is. Until you are saved, you are lost. If you are lost, how are ...[text shortened]... .
Any conditions one seeks to meet for forgiveness of sin is a slap in the face of Jesus.