Old Testament Trinity Challenge

Originally posted by chaney3
Grampy Bobby, the trinity doctrine is FAR from a truth. I have been waiting for Bible scripture to back it up, and quite frankly......there is a LOT more scripture to prove AGAINST this doctrine. You have made it clear that you believe in the trinity, but have provided NO proof of it.

Checkbaiter has provided more proof against the trinity. And my questio ...[text shortened]... stands. Will anybody waver from, or abandon their belief in the trinity, if proof can be provided?

Originally posted by chaney3
"You have made it clear that you believe in the trinity, but have provided NO proof of it."

The Lord Jesus Christ Asserts His Deity: "At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long [a]will You keep us in suspense? If You are [b ]the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. [c]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are [d]one.” (John 10:22-30) "Footnotes: a.John 10:24 Lit do You lift up our soul; b. John 10:24 i.e. the Messiah; c.John 10:29 One early ms reads What My Father has given Me is greater than all; d.John 10:30 Or a unity; or one essence;"

Note: God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, are three distinct persons who are co-equal, co-infinite and co-eternal; all three possess the same divine nature and eternal attributes. God is one in essence but in three persons.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Yes.

Post the scripture of just one incident where et do this please?

Originally posted by divegeester
Post the scripture of just one incident where et do this please?

More than willing to provide biblical information relevant to questions you have but draw the line on doing online search errands you're able to do for yourself. What question do you have regarding baptism in the Old or New Testaments or Church Age?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
More than willing to provide biblical information relevant to questions you have but draw the line on doing online search errands you're able to do for yourself. What question do you have regarding baptism in the Old or New Testaments or Church Age?

Sorry, not going to let you avoid; you brought the scripture up.

I'm asking you to back up your claim that the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit", by posting one single scriptural reference where they did this.

So the name of God is IN the Angel that God sends before Israel. This Angel is Christ, and Christ is the Son of God.

Exodus 23:22 says:

"But if you will indeed listen to His voice and do all that I speak, ..."

This indicates that the Angel's voice is God's speaking. In John 14:10 Christ the Son of God said -

"The words which I speak to you, I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does His works."

Just as the Angel's voice was Jehovah's speaking, so the Son of God's speaking was the Father's working. The fact that the Angel's voice in whom Jehovah's name is was Jehovah's speaking proves strongly that the Angel and Jehovah are one.

This is the Old Testament. In the New the Son and the Father are one. We get a glimpse into the mysterious one God who is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

If we study the Old Testament concerning the journey of the children of Israel from Egypt, through the wilderness, and into the land of Canaan, there is not one instance in which the Angel of Jehovah spoke anything.

Though there is no record of the Angel of Jehovah speaking in the journey we are told that God commanded them to obey His voice and do all that Jehovah speaks. Why does God then speak of the Angel's voice, if the Angel never voiced anything?

The reason is that God was the One always speaking. God's speaking was the Angel's voice. As in Zechariah 2:8-11 where Jehovah of hosts sent Jehovah of hosts, here in the journey God sent Himself to accompany His people. God sent God to accompany, to guard them in the way and to bring them into the good land.

God's speaking was the Angel's voice.

"I am now sending an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

Be careful before Him, and listen to His voice ... But if you will indeed listen to His voice and do all that I speak, ... " (See Exodus 23:20-22)

This involves the matter of the Trinity. The Trinity is the dispensing of God to man. Even with the children of Israel in the Old Testament, we see God is triune for the dispensing of God to man.

In the Old Testament the Angel of Jehovah goes before His people to bring them to the place God has prepared for them. And in the New Testament, the Lord Jesus, goes to bring His people into the place He has prepared for them - that place is the mingling of God and man as " My Father's house"

"Do not let your heart be troubled, believe into God, believe also into Me.

In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be. "(John 14:1-3)

The picture is with the history of the children of Israel. The caption underneath the picture is in the New Testament. The Son of God went to the cross to die to prepare a way to bring man into God and God into man.

Christ was the ABODE. Christ said if there were only ONE He would have told us. But He goes to the cross to die a redemptive death and rise again to bring His believers to Himself. That is that where He is we also may be - the many abodes of the Triune God.

The many abodes of the Triune God constitute the house of the Father - "In My Father's house there are many abodes." (v.2)

Without Christ preparing a place for sinner by going to Calvary and rising again in resurrection there could never be a place for them IN God, IN the Father's house.

In this post I briefly bring together the picture in the Old Testament and the reality in the New Testament of the picture.

The place that Christ prepares for the believers is a living Person and the way to the place is also a living Person.

"Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going, how can we know the way?

Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:5,6)

The place Jesus goes to prepare is not Heaven. The place is mingling with God. The place is oneness with God. The place is in the Father. And the WAY to the place, the living way is the Son of God - "I am the way and the reality and the life."

The Triune God is for the bring of God and man together into the mingling of divinity and humanity for man's enjoyment and God's eternal expression.

Originally posted by divegeester
Did the disciples baptise in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit"?

Yes. The disciples baptized people into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Your next question probably is something like - "But what did they SAY?" They said a number of things. But they baptize people into the Triune God. Into His name is into Him. Being hung up only on what was pronounced is too superficial. It i too per-occupied with ritual in a systematic way.

To baptize the believers into one Body was to baptize them into the name of the Triune God -

"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink of one Spirit." ( 1 Cor. 12:13)

To be baptized into Christ Jesus and into the death of Christ was to be baptized into the Person of the Triune God and therefore into His name.

"Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?

We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, ..." (See Romans 6:2-4)

It is too superficial to not realize that this too was being baptized into the Person - into the name of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

to be baptized upon the name of Jesus, in the name of Jesus, and into the name of Jesus (all three of which I think are used in the book of Acts) was to be baptized into the Triune God.

People hung up on "Well, what did they SAY ?" have to superficial a viewpoint. They are more interested in ritual, systematic formulas for the mouth.

We exercise our faith as Christians and immerse believers into Christ, into one Spirit, into the death of Christ, etc, All of these done in faith are to baptize into the name of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

The truths of the New Testament are appropriated by faith and by God's faithfulness.

" For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many as have been baptized into Christ Jesus have put on Christ.

There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26-28)

This too is to be baptized into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by divegeester
Sorry, not going to let you avoid; you brought the scripture up.

I'm asking you to back up your claim that the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit", by posting one single scriptural reference where they did this.

"7 Baptisms In The Bible"

"(3) In the baptisms of early Church Age believers, the water identified new believers with the name (and thus the character) of God (Matthew 28:19), signifying the new life of discipleship in Christ. The early believers were identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Real Baptisms were an actual identification with something other than water." (1 of 7)

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/7-baptisms-in-the-bible/

"Is Water-Baptism Required for Christians?"

http://ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm

Originally posted by sonship
Yes. The disciples baptized people into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Your next question probably is something like - "But what did they SAY?" They said a number of things. But they baptize people into the Triune God. Into His name is into Him. Being hung up only on what was pronounced is too superficial. It i too per-occupie ...[text shortened]... te]

This too is to be baptized into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

No, they didn't. Show me one scripture where the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". Just one will do.

The disciples baptised into the name of "Jesus Christ" each and every time.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"7 Baptisms In The Bible"

"(3) In the baptisms of early Church Age believers, the water identified new believers with the name (and thus the character) of God (Matthew 28:19), signifying the new life of discipleship in Christ. The early believers were identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Real Baptisms were an a ...[text shortened]... b]"Is Water-Baptism Required for Christians?"[/b]

http://ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm[/b]

Shall I take your avoidance of posting a scripture to support your claim that the diciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit" as being an admittance that you don't have a scripture to support your claim?

Why do you think that after Jesus commanded them go baptise in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit", that they all, every time, baptised into the name of Jesus Christ"?

Now to me this is a blatantly obvious one, but because the obvious conclusion is at odds with what your human authority figure has taught you, you will not accept it.

Originally posted by divegeester
Sorry, not going to let you avoid; you brought the scripture up.

I'm asking you to back up your claim that the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit", by posting one single scriptural reference where they did this.

Christ instructed his disciples to do that:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ instructed his disciples to do that:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

1. Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching and whether Christ was God or a creation of God. We feel confident that if the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted it as “in my name.” Thus, we believe that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and that the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.

2. If Matthew 28:19 is accurate as it stands in modern versions, then there is no explanation for the apparent disobedience of the apostles, since there is not a single occurrence of them baptizing anyone according to that formula. All the records in the New Testament show that people were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, just as the text Eusebius was quoting said to do. In other words, the “name of Jesus Christ,” i.e., all that he represents, is the element, or substance, into which people were figuratively “baptized.” “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38). “They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16). “So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48). “On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5). We cannot imagine any reason for the Apostles and others in Acts to disobey a command of the risen Christ. To us, it seems clear that Christ said to baptize in his name, and that was what the early Church did.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/matthew-28-19

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by chaney3
"You have made it clear that you believe in the trinity, but have provided NO proof of it."

The Lord Jesus Christ Asserts His Deity: "At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, an ...[text shortened]... ssess the same divine nature and eternal attributes. God is one in essence but in three persons.

John 10:30
I and my father are one. (KJV)

1. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.” The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant—he and his father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, “he who plants and he who waters are one” (1 Cor. 3:8 – KJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up “one being.” Furthermore, the NIV translates 1 Corinthians 3:8 as “he who plants and he who waters have one purpose.” Why translate the phrase as “are one” in one place, but as “have one purpose” in another place? In this case, translating the same phrase in two different ways obscures the clear meaning of Christ’s statement in John 10:30: Christ always did the Father’s will; he and God have “one purpose.”

2. Christ uses the concept of “being one” in other places, and from them one can see that “one purpose” is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God’s children “one.” In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be “one” as he and God were “one.” We think it is obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” We believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered.

3. The context of John 10:30 shows conclusively that Jesus was referring to the fact that he had the same purpose as God did. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.

Buzzard, pp. 135 and 136

Farley, pp. 60 and 61

Morgridge, pp. 39-42

Originally posted by divegeester
No, they didn't. Show me one scripture where the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". Just one will do.

The disciples baptised into the name of "Jesus Christ" each and every time.

Originally posted by divegeester
"No, they didn't. Show me one scripture where the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". Just one will do"

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
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Comment:The Lord Jesus Christ gave this command to His disciples [students/followers] who obeyed His command because they accepted His authority. If they had balked and said, "No way, Lord" [2nd Class Conditional in the Koine Greek: "If and it's not true"] how would the Gospel [the good news of salvation] have spread so rapidly in the ancient world which they were instrumental in evangelizing? If you're unable to accept the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself it's highly doubtful that you'll ever accept His words quoted to you by anyone on this online spirituality forum. Perhaps you should consider making an appointment with your own pastor/teacher to privately discuss this gnawing question. I hope the following footnote also proves helpful:

Footnote: “There are 2 identifications in the NT as related to baptizo: (1) Ritual (2) Real. Ritual identification is the act of immersing or submerging oneself in water in the ritualistic sense such as Pre-Canon Christian water baptism, Baptism of Jesus, Baptism of John. Real identification is the act of identifying one thing with another as in the Baptism of the Spirit, Baptism of Moses, Baptism of Fire, Baptism of the Cross. Depending upon the context of the passage then, baptizo can refer to a ritual identification or real identification. The passages which speak of the Baptism of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12:13 and Eph. 4:5 speak of real identification." (Pastor/Teacher Bill Wenstrom, Pages 5-6)

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/pneumatology/ministry_of_the_spirit.pdf