08 Feb 09
Originally posted by ahosyneyDo you agree with these punishments as well ?
..I believe that adultery is a major sin, and a crime, and muslim shouldn't commet it like any other crime, but like any other crime , there is a ristricted conditions to accuse someone with it, and there is a punishment, ....
Punishments for serious crimes...Drinking alcohol, Theft , Highway robbery, Illegal sexual intercourse, Apostasy ..includes blasphemy.
In brief, the punishments include:
Capital punishments - by sword/crucifixion (for highway robbery with homicide), by stoning (for zina' when the offenders are mature, married Muslims)
Amputation of hands or feet (for theft and highway robbery without homicide)
Flogging with a varying number of strokes (for drinking, zina' when the offenders are unmarried or not Muslims, and false accusations of zina'😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud
08 Feb 09
Originally posted by Rajk999If you know that, so when you said:
Glad to see you guys have met ... 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud
The punishment of adulterers under Islamic law is stoning. It is not mentioned in the Qur'an but "derives its authority from hadith literature references which are imputed by many," according to Kemal A. Faruki.[5] There are certain standards for proof that must be met in Islamic l ...[text shortened]... the Maliki school of law, however, evidence of pregnancy also constitutes sufficient proof..
"He has produced voluminous evidence from the Koran for the stoning of adulterers in other threads."
You were lying, because how can I produce evidences from the Quran if it is not there.
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Why didn't you complete the paragraph you Quoted?
Here is the part that you ignored:
"[6] Scholars such as Fazel Lankarani and Ayatollah Sanei hold that stoning penalty is imposed only if the adulterer has had sexual access to his or her mate.[7][8] Ayatollah Shirazi states that the proof for adultery is very hard to establish, because no one commits adultery in public unless they are irreverent.[9] For the establishment of adultery, four witnesses "must have seen the act in its most intimate details, i.e. the penetration (like “a stick disappearing in a kohl container,” as the fiqh books specify). If their testimonies do not satisfy the requirements, they can be sentenced to eighty lashes for unfounded accusation of fornication." [10]"
I no why , because it doesn't support you objectives.
Anyway, thank you for proving my point!!
08 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Zahlanzioh then i misunderstood. you didn't say he was lying about you supporting the stoning. he was lying about you using the quran to support the stoning.
oh then i misunderstood. you didn't say he was lying about you supporting the stoning. he was lying about you using the quran to support the stoning.
so basically you support stoning without the quran telling you so. is that true?
my position to you changed after i read YOUR post. Rajk made a comment, he was accused of lying, he made hateful remark t is evil. you should have lied and we would have thought you are a good, enlightened person.
That is one point, the other point I will explain by this question:
Does, "ahosyney supports stoning of adulterers and and apostates as stated in the Koran"
give the same meaning to you as:
"ahosyney supports stoning of adulterers who have been seen by 4 witnesses to the level that the four can describe exactly the same details with no single difference, which he believes can't happen until they are doing it in public, as stated in Hadith"
For me they don't give the same meaning, and the information the two statements imply is totally different. And that is why I think Rajk99 is intentionally lying about me by manipulating my opinions to support his agenda towards Muslims and Islam. That is of course besides two other cases in the other thread.
so basically you support stoning without the quran telling you so. is that true?
I don't want to go in much details here, because some people think I'm preaching when I use Quran or Hadith to prove my point about Islam.
So in short, nothing in Quran talks about stoning. The evidence for stoning with details I described before can only be found in Hadith.
my position to you changed after i read YOUR post. Rajk made a comment, he was accused of lying, he made hateful remark towards muslims. i was prepared to give you a chance to explain before forming an opinion on you. you have clarified matters for me.
That is good.
stoning is the same as killing 3 year olds : there is no circumstance to justify it. in fact, i am thinking of a circumstance in which is acceptable to kill a 3 year old if for example he is stabbing you with a knife you are allowed to smack him to stop and if you accidentally kill him, it is justified if you have 1 or 2 stab wounds in your chest or stomach. but there is no justification in giving a stone to a person and making or allowing that person to hit a defenseless person with the declared intent of killing.
That is you opinion, based on many factors and we can discuss it if you want, but that doesn't in any way allows anyone or give permission to anyone to use lies.
i didn't say that. i said that stoning someone for finding love elsewhere is murder.
did I say that. or even my opinions imply that. No, and it can't be. Using my opinions to imply that is simply wrong.
Love doesn't imply sexual relation. It might be the result but not necessary. Adultery only means illegal sexual intercourse nothing more (not love). So to accuse someone with adultery there should be sexual intercourse and it should be proven.
i said that to put justice in the hands of the mob is barbaric and murder.
I agree, but we have to agree on the barbaric actions.
is it not your belief that allah will punish the sinful?
yes unless they repent to Allah and ask his forgiveness, in this case Allah in Quran promised forgiveness to the true repentant.
so why is it necessary to punish them yourself?
First, I will not punish any one myself, I'm not respoinsible to punish someone , I'm not the judge. In any secular law, the judge is the one who punish, and he is the one is responsible for that, no one say that the judge is bad because he punishes people. So if any muslim performs punishment himself he is wrong, and a murderer.
Second, if you are talking about the general meaning, then If Allah setup a law and asks us to use it, then why do you think I should not do that?
This leads to actual question:
If there is GOD , and his name is Allah, and he ask you to use a specific law, does it make sense to say no it doesn't make sense and then claim you are a believer.
do you not have the concept of atoning for ones sins? how is one to atone if his brains are splattered all over the sidewalk?
I do and I will explain this by the following. In Islam sin can be removed by repentance. And repentance requires regretting the action and the intention not to return to it.
And giving that from the conditions required to stone someone for adultery 99% of those who commit that sin will not be stoned, then 99% of the adulterers have a chance to atone their sin without their brains splattered all over the sidewalk.
During prophet Mohammed life after Islam which is around 23 years, he only stoned two persons for adultery (a man and a women), and they were not accused by 4 witnesses, no, but by self confession. They came to the prophet requiring the stoning themselves. And the prophet refused to believe them until they told hem him that they want to be cleaned. And the prophet said about them that their repentance is enough for all Muslims. So that covers the remaining 1%.
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EDIT: I have to go now, I will get back to you soon.
08 Feb 09
1 edit
Watch an interview with Dr Jurgen Todenhofer, author of the book "Why do you kill, Zaid?".
Jürgen Todenhöfer's book is an attempt to shed light on the other side of the story. It reports on how Iraqi people talk about the war, when there are no heavily-armed GIs in the vicinity. When neither helicopters nor humvees have been "cleansing" and securing the area for hours beforehand, for politicians and press convoys. "Why do you kill, Zaid?" gives a voice to those whom Pentagon press officers never take their visitor delegations to see - members of the Iraqi resistance. The book attempts to explain why this resistance is not only fighting against American troops, but also against Al Qaeda terrorists and the foreign-backed private militias of Iraqi politicians. It aims to clarify the fundamental differences between resistance fighters and terrorists.
More about dr Todenhofer, his book and his ten theses you can find on his homepage:
www.whydoyoukillzaid.com
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Listen to this guy. He said more than what I can say about lies about Islam, and is it true that Islam is the most evil force in world today.
Lies every where!!!
08 Feb 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadno, you have misinterpreted what i said, what i should have said was lying is entirely up to you, its your conscience, is it not?
So I was perfectly correct when I concluded that you think us all to be liars, I simply got there via the wrong logic?
09 Feb 09
Originally posted by ahosyneyEdit:
I really got tired from your lies. Can't you ever stop lying for a minute, or it became in your blood.
1- To start with stoning can't be found in Koran, so your statement:
[b]He has produced voluminous evidence from the Koran for the stoning of adulterers in other threads
is either another big lie, or another proof of your ignorant.
2- Ston ...[text shortened]... mit that you are a liar then I don't think I should take you seriously any more.[/b]
"The only case I support stoning, is when the couple allow four people to see his part inside her part. And they allow them to identify their colors. Which I believe can't happen unless they are doing sex in public."
Your religionist delusions are dangerous and the way of your thinking barbaric.
09 Feb 09
Originally posted by black beetleYour religionist delusions are dangerous and the way of your thinking barbaric.
Edit:
"The only case I support stoning, is when the couple allow four people to see his part inside her part. And they allow them to identify their colors. Which I believe can't happen unless they are doing sex in public."
Your religionist delusions are dangerous and the way of your thinking barbaric.
I don't have religionist delusions (what ever does that mean?), I do have the truth which you never asked me about. You waste your time going around the truth but never going to reach it.
And I'm not barbaric, I'm more civilized than you are. I live the happiest life a human can live. Because I know the real meaning of being human.
Islam is the only truth in this world. That is the clear fact. Only the fruitful tree is the target of stones.
Your information about Islam is not correct, and all of your discussions are meaning less and objective less.. You make assumptions without any bases, combined with a complete ignorant.
I hope you liked my preaching!!!!
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Islam is not the law, Islam is to believe in GOD and worship him, in case you want to know!!!
09 Feb 09
Originally posted by ahosyneyedit:
This is not the topic we are discussing here. And I don't mind to discuss it as much as you want, but not here and now. We are here to discuss lying, and the use of lying.
[b]EDIT:Btw, you lied as well. He said you support stoning. You admitted in what cases you support stoning. point proven, don't you think?
So if he said and I admit , that me ...[text shortened]... something like that, all what I hope of is to stop lying and then make your judgment.[/b]
""ahosyney supports stoning of adulterers who have been seen by 4 witnesses to the level that the four can describe exactly the same details with no single difference, which he believes can't happen until they are doing it in public, as stated in Hadith"
Do you really understand English or do you not?
In the western countries adultery is not a crime the way Shariah "law" considers it. A divorce is enough. A divorce would be enough even if the adulterer was having a mega party in the middle of an avenue at 11:00 in the morning with 11 drunk sailors together with 14 duzzlin hookers and 29 bysexuals and 32 trannies (not to mention the 3 pure dead middle-aged ever ready sodomites) in front of 4.444 eye witnesses.
Who needs your religionist hysteria, darling?
09 Feb 09
Originally posted by ahosyneyThis is religionist delusions😵
[b]Your religionist delusions are dangerous and the way of your thinking barbaric.
I don't have religionist delusions (what ever does that mean?), I do have the truth which you never asked me about. You waste your time going around the truth but never going to reach it.
And I'm not barbaric, I'm more civilized than you are. I live the happiest lif ...[text shortened]... Islam is not the law, Islam is to believe in GOD and worship him, in case you want to know!!![/b]
09 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetleIn the western countries adultery is not a crime the way Shariah "law" considers it. A divorce is enough. A divorce would be enough even if the adulterer was having a mega party in the middle of an avenue at 11:00 in the morning with 11 drunk sailors together with 14 duzzlin hookers and 29 bysexuals and 32 trannies (not to mention the 3 pure dead middle-aged ever ready sodomites) in front of 4.444 eye witnesses.
edit:
""ahosyney supports stoning of adulterers who have been seen by 4 witnesses to the level that the four can describe exactly the same details with no single difference, which he believes can't happen until they are doing it in public, as stated in Hadith"
Do you really understand English or do you not?
In the western countries adultery is n omites) in front of 4.444 eye witnesses.
Who needs your religionist hysteria, darling?
Is what you are describing here a civilized behavior. It is more like a barbarian one for me and very disgusting. You can see that behavior only in animals, or uncivilized groups before civilization when there was no organized social system. In Muslims world we look at this behavior as a barbarian one, and we compare who do it to animals.
Also does this make you happier people, or does it make Europe paradise. No , the rapping rate in any European country is high than the total of all the Muslim countries (oh I forgot, they must be higher but girls are afraid to report, bad me).
The number of children without father in the west exceeds the sum of all the Muslim countries. How many bastard you met during your life, I didn't meat any one?
The number of people who commit suicide in western countries is far more than the sum of all Muslim countries.
I can walk any where in Cairo at any time of day or night, but I can't do that in many places in Europe and USA.
I live in a western country and I dream of the day when I will return home. Yes there are a very bright sides but the dark sides are more and more so that I can't hold it anymore.
So have fun with your barbaric civilization!!!!! And I think my GOD that I don't belong to it by any way!!!!!
09 Feb 09
Originally posted by ahosyneyOh, my poor ahosyney, this is tragic.
[b]In the western countries adultery is not a crime the way Shariah "law" considers it. A divorce is enough. A divorce would be enough even if the adulterer was having a mega party in the middle of an avenue at 11:00 in the morning with 11 drunk sailors together with 14 duzzlin hookers and 29 bysexuals and 32 trannies (not to mention the 3 pure dead middle- ...[text shortened]... ur barbaric civilization!!!!! And I think my GOD that I don't belong to it by any way!!!!!
You must really feel like an unhumanly tormented One-Thousand Blossomed Lotus deep down in the sewers-like filthyness of them Canadians, who in addition they stand not the slightest chance, ever, to conceive that the right spirit is the Holy Malt instead of this rye of theirs that smells like cheap aftershave afterall;
I wish you to emancipate yourself soon from your brutally forced mental and sentimental slavery under them Canadian unbelievers and to return the soonest possible back to your respected country, where at last you will have the chance to study hard and to become a real, brave Salafist😵