01 Jun 13
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
Oh my....You just can't pick up on it can you? It really still amazes me how you can read a scripture or many scriptures and not see what you are truely reading.
YES Jesus is "a" GOD. But NO where does it ever say he is "Almighty God" nor does he ever say his is "Almighty God". NO WHERE. NOT ONCE.
The scripture in Isaiah is NOT speaking of Jesus a self.
Read the scriptures for what they say..not what you think they say!!!!!!!!!
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV)
Read that for what the scriptures says.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(John 1:14, 18 NKJV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
(John 14:7-9 NKJV)
He is the image of the invisible God...
(Colossians 1:15 NKJV)
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily...
(Colossians 2:9 NKJV)
Halleluyah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
01 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsSame scriptures with the same confusion. No sense in doing this again with you.
[b]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV)
Read that for what the scriptures says.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld H ...[text shortened]... :9 NKJV)
Halleluyah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
01 Jun 13
Your argument is fallacious (big word look it up 😉 ) at best Jehovah is not in the original Hebrew because Hebrew did not have vowels it was YHWH which if were being intellectually honest we have no clue on how it was pronounced and the Hebrews did not pronounce it for fear of blaspheme so what right do the JW's have on claiming it is Jehovah ? Jehovah is a transliteration into English a word on which no one really knows how it was pronounced. Adoni means Lord and it may be just a title but God is the Lord of Lord's and you know what and who Psalm 83 is speaking of so your being dishonest in what your saying.
Manny
01 Jun 13
Here is another thing if the NWT is so mighty then what did man do without it for the last 2000 years ? Being that the NWT is only less than 100 years old !! I guess God could not communicate his word to man until the NWT was made right? See how silly this is? There are many translations some faithful and some not
Manny
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by menace71Yahshua (Jesus) said the following:
Your argument is fallacious (big word look it up 😉 ) at best Jehovah is not in the original Hebrew because Hebrew did not have vowels it was YHWH which if were being intellectually honest we have no clue on how it was pronounced and the Hebrews did not pronounce it for fear of blaspheme so what right do the JW's have on claiming it is Jehovah ? Jehovah is ...[text shortened]... ow what and who Psalm 83 is speaking of so your being dishonest in what your saying.
Manny
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.
(John 5:39 NIV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
01 Jun 13
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
(Exodus 3:14-15 NKJV)
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
(John 8:58 NKJV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe do are interested in accuracy; however we do not pay attention solely to the differ grammatical structures, but also to the pattern of the formation of sentences and phrases. Methinks John’s verse in Koine is clearly a tautology, and therefore the subject of the finite verb and that of a participate/ infinitive are the same.
Ok now that i have finished a horrendous day, let me explain the position. We are interested in accuracy, is that not correct? When we translate from one language into another there are certain grammatical structures that we need to observe, therefore let us look at the Greek text, of particular interest is the phrase,
kia theos en ho logos (an ...[text shortened]... e Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
However I am aware of the translations of your institution that are based on the exegesis of John 1:14, 1:18, 17:3 and 20:31, in addition with Mat. 24:36, Psalm 90:2, Acts 7:55, Col. 1:15 etc.
But what exactly is considered as Logos?
1. The First Cause that gave rise to the creation, the seven biblical days that, according to many, they still have not completed their cycle.
2. Logos is the Word that articulates the word which magically creates and gives Order and Meaning to Chaos (Isis, in order to resuscitate her beloved Osiris, she had to know his real name, the magic word that when it was pronounced properly had the power to give again Life to the gods. This ancient tradition is the root and the archetype of the various stories of searching of a so called “lost Word", my feer).
3. Logos is also Ratio, the ratio of the End, the Secret of the Creation that is described in the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus: "Einai alithestaton, apsefdestaton, vevaiotaton" (It is the most true, the most free of falsity, the most certain). The Downwards corresponds to the Upwards and vice versa, so that the fulfillment of the desires of the One can take place. And, since everything came from the One -by the Thought of the One, that is- so everything was born out of the One by such an adjustment.
All in all, methinks that with John 1:1, the poet who gave us also his Apocalypse, we are not merely in front of linguistics. We are forced to dive deep into exegesis.
😵
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI came across this master thesis on the topic of discussion here. It is fairly long (169 pages) but worth the read, I have gotten through have of it myself. I understand JW are forbidden (at least that is what I understand from what I have seen written from different sources) to read anything that may not be approved by the Watchtower, but maybe I am wrong on this. This is not a drive by read and dump paper, I think it is very well done with all points substantiated along the way. I would expect JW to not be interested, but perhaps some others are.
perhaps study in a particular field of expertise. The accusations, of the type that snoozianne has levelled against the New world translation are the usual unsubstantiated jive talk that one can get from a spiritual jumble sale, ask her to produce evidence to back up her claims and she is thoroughly bereft! Centre of the worlds largest doughnut.
The NWT is the Rolls Royce of Biblical translations.
http://www.satsonline.org/userfiles/Baumgarten%20K,%20MTh%20Thesis%20(Final).pdf
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by black beetlena na my trusty feer, as soon as one enters the realms of exegesis one is entering a room full of mirrors and unless ones thoughts a securely anchored to some defining criteria, in this instance the grammatical construct, one is liable to become disorientated.
Hah, my evaluation is identical to our vistesd; Exegesis rules, and Koine Greek offers all the rope one can need😵
We know that the subject of the sentence is the word, we know that the term theos, in the clause (kia theos en ho logos) is a predicate noun, it tells us something about the logos. The extent that one needs to go to to make sense of both the English idiom and the Greek idiom appears to me not to be dependent of exegesis, but may be deduced from the text itself, without religious distortion. What seems evident is that the writer of the text is implying that the logos belongs to a particular 'class', in this instance of divine beings and has the 'nature', of theos, 'a god'. Its no doubt with this in mind that some translators have saw fit to reader the clause 'and the word was divine', which satisfies all the dictates of language and all potentialities.
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by kd2aczI understand JW are forbidden (at least that is what I understand from what I have seen written from different sources) to read anything that may not be approved by the Watchtower
I came across this master thesis on the topic of discussion here. It is fairly long (169 pages) but worth the read, I have gotten through have of it myself. I understand JW are forbidden (at least that is what I understand from what I have seen written from different sources) to read anything that may not be approved by the Watchtower, but maybe I am wrong ...[text shortened]... others are.
http://www.satsonline.org/userfiles/Baumgarten%20K,%20MTh%20Thesis%20(Final).pdf
Interesting how do you take into account that we regularly quote other Biblical translations in the watchtower magazine and these arguments that i am presenting come essentially from a publication , Accuracy and bias in English translations of the new testament, written by associate professor Jason BeDhun, who is not a witness and has no association with the watchtower and bible tract society, which i posses and have read with pleasure on numerous occasions.
01 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOk, fair enough... I did say I could be wrong and it was something I read. As I stated in a previous thread I have family members that are JW and I don't know a lot about what they believe, so I am looking to know more. Maybe you will read the paper then?
I understand JW are forbidden (at least that is what I understand from what I have seen written from different sources) to read anything that may not be approved by the Watchtower
Interesting how do you take into account that we regularly quote other Biblical translations in the watchtower magazine and these arguments that i am presenting come ess ...[text shortened]... tower and bible tract society, which i posses and have read with pleasure on numerous occasions.
01 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by kd2aczlooking at the preface, i don't think ill bother. If he had sought to make a comparison of other translations as well it at very least could purport to be objective, but seeing that he has singled out not only the translation, but its motives for being produced as well as the translation committee, i don't think ill bother. If you wish to state reasons against why we translate particular verses then feel free, be my guest, otherwise, please spare me.
Ok, fair enough... I did say I could be wrong and it was something I read. As I stated in a previous thread I have family members that are JW and I don't know a lot about what they believe, so I am looking to know more. Maybe you will read the paper then?
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat may be true, with one exception. The Greek is Theos, which means God. So by using divine, you would replacing God with a quality of God. Therefore, no cigar.
na na my trusty feer, as soon as one enters the realms of exegesis one is entering a room full of mirrors and unless ones thoughts a securely anchored to some defining criteria, in this instance the grammatical construct, one is liable to become disorientated.
We know that the subject of the sentence is the word, we know that the term theos, in ...[text shortened]... e word was divine', which satisfies all the dictates of language and all potentialities.
The Instructor 😏
01 Jun 13
Originally posted by menace71Actually, spiritually, man has not done good overall the last 2000 years Manny.
Here is another thing if the NWT is so mighty then what did man do without it for the last 2000 years ? Being that the NWT is only less than 100 years old !! I guess God could not communicate his word to man until the NWT was made right? See how silly this is? There are many translations some faithful and some not
Manny
What Jesus taught was truth with no influance at all of pagainistic teachings. Right?
So understanding that and then he and the apostles cleary said that after their deaths, false teachings would begin to enter into the congregations and teachings of Jesus and mislead many. Right? Am I wrong?
So now with that fact understood, I hope, humans were pretty much left on our own spiritually. Not completely but as a general rule.
Now this is when satan did all he could to change what Jesus taught as well as the other truthful events in the past.
Now we know eventually the Bible started to be let out of the hands of the so called religious leaders and written for the masses even though the religious leaders did not want that to happen.
Why was that? Why would those in charge of spiritual knowledge not want the normal person to have a Bible?
Also satan again now knew this was his chance to really do whatever he could do to deflect and twist the truth of God and his message sent to us by his son Jesus. And Jesus knew this would happen and that is why he warned that fact to humans. Right?
Now what a better way to disrupt and even if only slightly alter the knowledge of God to influance the writing of the Bible by humans. And even the humans that copied the Bible at times were very biased and influanced by many false teachings that were alowed to filter in that were not ever taught by Jesus or written by the earlier bible writers.
Satan is a brilliant spirit being Manny. He has been around for ions of time. He saw the earth made and humans created. And once he turned against his creator his only intent is to destroy man. He can't do that to Jehovah or his son but he can do that to humans.
What a better way to get us off track spiritually then to go to the extent of having the Bible that we all trust, altered in even the smallest ways.
Look at the confusion and even fighting and killing because of the many different opionions of the Bible. Look at the stupid arguing that even happens here on this site.
If the Bible had no alterations from satan and we all had the same and correct understanding of it, there would be very few issues with the Bible that we'd have. We'd "all be in agreement" just as Jesus said his followers should have. But yet we don't at least on a large scale.
So what is the result of different ideas or opinions on the Bible? One as an example is so called christians killing other christians in stupid wars that satan is causing, among other things.
So if satan had not influanced the Bible with hints of false ideas, we'd only have 1 bible. But it has not turned out that way.
So......maybe Jehovah with his timetable of the last days now upon us, decided to finally have his words written in the Bible, written correctly, he had his Bible corrected back to his original thoughts?
I know you'll disagree but why is that not possible?
Does the Bible itself not say that as time goes on the "light in the Bible would get brighter and brighter"?
And if the Bible did not have a chance of being altered, why the warning in Revelation to tell humans not to do that?