Most vile concept/aspect of Islam?

Originally posted by wucky3
where did i say they were free???

I merely pointed out that women are treated as 2nd class citizens all over the world.

If you asked me honestly, I wouldn't even call The Saudi Arabian government a muslim government.


It's quite clear that Islam does not allow for feudalism. And yet that is the government.

It's quite clear that Islam does not allow for the unethical treatment of women and children. And yet there are non-religious laws and customs present.


Let me provide you with an analogy. I do this often enough that you guys will be used to it.

I'm working one summer evening on my computer and notice that it shuts off by itself. I try to turn it back on but it doesn't. I check the power, the buttons, and the monitor/drive/etc..., but nothing seems to work. I begin to judge the reliability of my computer.

Realizing that it won't start and that I'm tired from working anyways, I decide to go for a walk. If for no other reason than to take a break. I notice that the street lamps are not working. It's not an uncommon sight to see a few of them not working somewhere. So, I begin to question the reliability of the streetlamps.

I walk towards a convenience store to pick something, maybe a pack of cigarettes (I don't actually smoke). I notice that the store's lights are out too. In fact, I just realized that I haven't seen a single sign of working electrical equipment since my computer shut down.

Now what do I do? While it's possible that all these things have failed of their own accord, it's highly unlikely. Certainly, to have it happen at the same time is absurd. I shift the blame away from my computer, the streetlights, the store, and to the source of the problem. The power grid.

Indeed, it would seem logical that whatever is supplying the electricity to all these components could shut them off in a single failure.

So, naturally, I begin to question the reliablity of the power grid.

Now, unbeknownst to me, there was a force I could not have accounted for. It's not that I was unaware of it's existence or could not understand it, but due to the fact that I was not accustomed to questionaing every possible cause for a given effect.

It just so happened on that evening that there was an immensly powerful solar wind. This violent discharge from the surface of the sun travelled millions of kilometers at a relatively unimaginable speed and struck the earths atmosphere. Fortunately for us, we were, for the most part, unharmed. But, the electrons and other charged particles in the atmosphere whizzed past us, and through the power grid, and knocked out the power station which supplies my little town with energy...

Perhaps that's not an accurate description of what happens, but that's not the point.

Sometimes there are extraneous factors that we have not taken into consideration.

Why is it that "moderate" mulims are so different from what we see in the east?

Are you truly looking at all the factors which could be the cause for the apparent difference?

Who/what are you truly judging, and why?

Originally posted by Tetsujin
If you asked me honestly, I wouldn't even call The Saudi Arabian government a muslim government.


It's quite clear that Islam does not allow for feudalism. And yet that is the government.

It's quite clear that Islam does not allow for the unethical treatment of women and children. And yet there are non-religious laws and customs present.


Let me ...[text shortened]... ause for the apparent difference?

Who/what are you truly judging, and why?

Islam demands that the religion IS the state, and that is something that will always put it at odds against people who want the chance to change things they don't like. The biggest crime of Islam against the people is simply this: Try recanting in Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia or any of the countries totally under the thumb of Islam, see how long you live. Nobody can claim to be a true follower of Islam if nobody is free to change the course of their lives. We wail at the way women are treated in muslim countries but that pales besides the two main features I just outlined: Islam IS the state once it gets in power, no way to end that except through bloody war and the fact that once you are a muslim you will remain a muslim unless you wish to be a martyr.
I am not talking about muslims in England or China or the US where they are a minority, although even there I can imagine retributions, just as in Scientology and the mafia. Once in you can never leave in peace. That would never NEVER come from a god, only from vindictive men, and thats the long and short of it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Islam demands that the religion IS the state, and that is something that will always put it at odds against people who want the chance to change things they don't like. The biggest crime of Islam against the people is simply this: Try recanting in Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia or any of the countries totally under the thumb of Islam, see how long you live. Nobo ...[text shortened]... ould never NEVER come from a god, only from vindictive men, and thats the long and short of it.

So you're basing this on experience, right?

This seems like inductive reasoning.

I can assure you that blaming Islam is not as rational as you may think. I can spell it out for you if you wish.

Originally posted by dottewell
You are blaming the religion. You should be blaming the society.

Their society (Islam) is based on their religion.....duh....😲 🙄

Originally posted by Tetsujin
What you've said is the equivalent of believing that a rainman dancing can control the seasons.

I mean, if the rainman dances in the first week of march and asks the spirits to bring life to the barren land, then would you believe him if that happened in the following weeks?

My point is, you should look at the other aspects of the society you are judg ...[text shortened]... w or mule. You seem quite keen on using irrational and destitute people to prove your claims.

He said that he lived there...what other proof do you want? I'm sure sonhouse is knowledgeable on the Q'uran......

Originally posted by chancremechanic
Their society (Islam) is based on their religion.....duh....😲 🙄

Read my first post on this page.


As for his knowledge, there's no harm debating.

In fact, I'd hope he does. I'd hope he has it memorized.

It would make my job easier.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Never said they were treated any better, but at least they can be PM's. How many women have been the leaders of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan,Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey?
Women are not allowed to even DRIVE in Saudi for krankys sake, and you talk about how free they must be?

Bhutto was PM of Pakistan.....she's a "split-tail"......

Originally posted by sonhouse
How can you even think about saying that when its an already proven fact or have you forgotten the burned embassies as a result of the cartoons, which were admittedly not even funny but how can you equate cartoons with murder? They did just exactly what I said, the Immans called for violence and there were any number of them quite ready to do it, and did, a ...[text shortened]... just the lastest phase. I am not just cutting down Islam here, Christianity is equally culpable.

What is already "proven"? My question was about Muslims in the west. And it is clear that only a very small minority took part in (mainly peaceful) protests against the cartoons.

Most imams in the west certainly did not call for violence - quite the opposite. Many in the Islamic world (including Hamas preachers in Palestine) also called for a dignified reaction.

You seem unable to distinguish between the social and religious aspects of Islamic countries.

Are you saying that Muslim women who work as teachers, lawyers, etc. in the west or in the Middle East are not "real" Muslims? That the vast majority of Muslim men who don't e.g. beat their wives are not "real" Muslims?

It is simply not true to say most Muslims see themselves involved in some great power struggle against Christianity, any more than the majority of Christians see themselves as locked in a power struggle with Islam.

Let's not give too much weight to the words of the outspoken minority in both religions. They are in a minority for a reason - because rational people see their views as absurd, dangerous, and contrary to the concept of _peace_ which is at the heart of both Islam and Christianity.

Originally posted by chancremechanic
Bhutto was PM of Pakistan.....she's a "split-tail"......

To whom it may concern...


He means Benazir Bhutto, and not her father who was also a politician.

Originally posted by sonhouse
How can I count the ways: How bout this for one:
The blatant way they subjugate women to the point of making them
on the same level as cattle.

Look at every social, religous and cultural sphere, they all subjugate women, why just emphasise Islam??

Originally posted by Tetsujin
To whom it may concern...


He means Benazir Bhutto, and not her father who was also a politician.

"SHES's a Split-tail" should have been enough explanation, except for the totally biologically-challenged.......

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Look at every social, religous and cultural sphere, they all subjugate women, why just emphasise Islam??

So because other peoples subjugate women, its ok for muslims to do it? Not even allow them to drive in Saudi for instance? Seems a bit blatant to me.
Nobody even replied about the orphanage situation, nobody cares that islam refuses to allow abortion. I personally saw the condition of the orphanages, nobody seems to much give a hoot what happens to those poor kids. Oh well, I guess that doesn't rise to the level of concern in the world. Oh, I forgot, Islam is such a religion of peace.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So because other peoples subjugate women, its ok for muslims to do it? Not even allow them to drive in Saudi for instance? Seems a bit blatant to me.
Nobody even replied about the orphanage situation, nobody cares that islam refuses to allow abortion. I personally saw the condition of the orphanages, nobody seems to much give a hoot what happens to those ...[text shortened]... n't rise to the level of concern in the world. Oh, I forgot, Islam is such a religion of peace.

I'd like to see some references. Perhaps something that relates specifically to the core of the religion. Perhaps we can start this debate with something other than opinions.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So because other peoples subjugate women, its ok for muslims to do it? Not even allow them to drive in Saudi for instance? Seems a bit blatant to me.
Nobody even replied about the orphanage situation, nobody cares that islam refuses to allow abortion. I personally saw the condition of the orphanages, nobody seems to much give a hoot what happens to those ...[text shortened]... n't rise to the level of concern in the world. Oh, I forgot, Islam is such a religion of peace.

The country I come from is a self declared "christian nation".
Many people in the country treat women as property to be bought and used. Many Christian countries and Christian empires in the past 2000 years have commited many attrocities and had chauvanistic laws (and many still do), for example some early democracies did not allow women to vote. Does this reflect on Christianity or the culture of the people involved? Islam is not the middle east any more than Christianity is Europe or the US or Judaism is Israel or Budhism is China. Sitting at a desk next to me where I work is a Muslim man. He calls his wife the Government.

Originally posted by Tetsujin
I'd like to see some references. Perhaps something that relates specifically to the core of the religion. Perhaps we can start this debate with something other than opinions.

Pardon me sir, this is not opinion. You should ask your muslim buddy next to you about muslim adoption practices, at least in the middle east. I can't vouch for adoption practices in the west. I only know what I saw with my own two eyes and my wife also.
Mohammed himself declared adoption to be against gods law, having to do with the dispruption of the family inheritance line I think. Its in the Q'uran. I have read some of it BTW. At least the english version.
I can tell you this, what I read of it I didn't like. Too many laws supposedly from god just like the bible. I even talked to an Immam about the adoption thing, he seemed unaware of it, probably did not want to talk to an infidel. Another example of religious bigotry.