Lying for God

Originally posted by sumydid
[b]Oh. I thought you were going at it from a different angle (i.e. the kingdom has not come with power yet, therefore it never will) but anyway, like CLL said above, you are assuming that everyone He spoke to there has tasted death. You assume everyone there lived a normal lifespan.

that or jesus was being extremely dishonest.

A rather daft assumption, considering that just 6 days after Jesus said those words, 2 living, breathing individuals stood alongside him on Mt. Tabor who obviously had not tasted death in well over 900 years. In Moses' case it was closer to 1,500 years.

you're grasping at straws. moses and elijah (or enoch) weren't standing in the audience and he wasn't addressing them. jesus was speaking to his audience in the context of their lifetime and in the context of one generation. it would be extremely dishonest of him to be thinking people magically coming back to life (moses) and elijah coming down for a visit from his mothership (or from wherever the whirlwind carried him) while making his promise of the kingdom coming in power.

A movie was made a while back, can't remember the name of it, but the director had these verses in mind and had certain characters walking the Earth since Jesus' time, longing for His return with power so they could finally leave this place.

yeah, you would have to come up with perverse justification for the failed prophecy. okay, find me one of those people, then we'll talk about the problem associated with the use of "this generation" used in the same context as people standing around him not tasting death till all be fulfilled.

and if you manage to do all that (doubt it) then we'll address jesus's dishonesty of using that context while planning all along on keeping one or two of them alive for chits and giggles.

Originally posted by CLL53
Other than by statistical inference, what real proof can you present that at least one person who was present at that time is not still living? While we consider a human lifespan is only so long, there is no concrete evidence that this must be and that there are no exceptions. Seems like this would be a matter of "faith" as well.

doesn't help your case. the context used is "this generation" and people standing around in his audience. that's typically 20-30 years. if would have been dishonest of him to use that context while planning on keeping a few breathing for 2000 years.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
i suspect that when their prophet failed to return as promised, they had to forge on ahead in the wake of lies. there must be a pathology in there, where they began to believe their own lies. it would've taken a certain pathology to become the followers of christ in the first place, if such a person existed.

I think he returned, not having died, however, but surviving his ordeal on the cross or whatever they did to him. If indeed ANY of that tale is true. There is a book called "Jesus Lived in India" that makes a plausible case for him coming back three days later and then having to split so the Romans and other enemies would not find him and founding monasteries on the Silk road and dying in Kashmir.

I think that as likely a story, and a lot more believable than anything cooked up in the bible.

Originally posted by twhitehead
He answered that question. He said:

...within one generation, withing the life span of the people he was addressing.

Jesus was not referring to the life span of the generation He was then addressing to fulfill the promise. He was referring to a future generation that would see all the signs of His coming. It was this future generation that will not pass away before all is fulfilled.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus was not referring to the life span of the generation He was then addressing to fulfill the promise. He was referring to a future generation that would see all the signs of His coming. It was this future generation that will not pass away before all is fulfilled.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

So now you know the motivation of the words of a person who died 2000 years ago. We have to bow to your superiority in all things.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So now you know the motivation of the words of a person who died 2000 years ago. We have to bow to your superiority in all things.

No need to bow. It should be common sense to all that really try to understand the text and look for the truth in it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No need to bow. It should be common sense to all that really try to understand the text and look for the truth in it.

I believe this is the exact text of the passage from Mark 9:1:

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Now, if this is the correct passage in question, this IS the correct wording. The statement is true and fulfilled if either (a) someone in the gathering was enabled to live to see the future event, or (b) someone saw it from their own time, looking to the future in prophetic sense (e.g., similar to the vision of John in the Revelation)

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
... you're grasping at straws. moses and elijah (or enoch) weren't standing in the audience and he wasn't addressing them. jesus was speaking to his audience in the context of their lifetime and in the context of one generation. it would be extremely dishonest of him to be thinking people magically coming back to life

No I'm not grasping at straws, though I'm sure you'd like to think your argument is so compelling, my faith is crumbling like a house of cards in the wind.

My point was, Jesus said something meaningful, remarkable. "Some of you shall not taste death until the kingdom returns with power." It wouldn't be remarkable or mentionable at all if the kingdom was about to come with power, because all the Jews that believed He was The One, believed that. Something else must have been remarkable. That thing was, there were certain select individuals within earshot of His statement, that would walk the Earth for a far longer time than they imagined possible.

The one grasping at straws (if either of us are) would have to be you in your assumption that every person who heard Jesus say that, has died. The bible is replete with examples of people living well beyond what would be naturally possible.

My point is in contrast to others, who claim the prophecy was fulfilled in short time and therefore did occur before everyone died within a normal time frame. I look at it differently but the fact is there are 2 valid arguments--both from different angles--that successfully counter your claim. Your claim is borne of opinion (such as the flippant manner in which you suggest God incarnate would arbitrarily and blatantly lie).

Edit: And above, I see CLL has offered up a 3rd perfectly viable counterargument, using future vision as a way of someone seeing the kingdom come with power, i.e. John in Revelation.

Take a bow, CLL.. the ones across the aisle are doing it out of turn, so you might as well show them how to take one that is deserved. And if you're wearing a skirt or a kilt, a curtsy will do just fine.

Originally posted by sumydid
No I'm not grasping at straws, though I'm sure you'd like to think your argument is so compelling, my faith is crumbling like a house of cards in the wind.

My point was, Jesus said something meaningful, remarkable. "Some of you shall not taste death until the kingdom returns with power." It wouldn't be remarkable or mentionable at all if the kingdom was ...[text shortened]... e that is deserved. And if you're wearing a skirt or a kilt, a curtsy will do just fine.

Thanks. Another consideration would be had John himself also been in the gathering at that time, then Jesus' words would be prophecy of John's own future writings of the Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John, in which case the prophecy has also already been fulfilled.

Thanks, but I better abstain from taking any bows. Although the sentiment is appreciated, one may not want to bend over around the crowd from across the aisle, some might be sodomites... 😉

Originally posted by CLL53
I believe this is the exact text of the passage from Mark 9:1:

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Now, if this is the correct passage in question, this IS the correct wording. The statement is true and fulfille ...[text shortened]... oking to the future in prophetic sense (e.g., similar to the vision of John in the Revelation)

The some Jesus was speaking of was Peter, James, and John as is explained in the Holy Bible when they speak of His transfiguration before them. This was simply a preview to them of what would occur in the future to a generation that would witness all the signs of His second coming.

P.S. Peter also refers to it in one of his letters.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The some Jesus was speaking of was Peter, James, and John as is explained in the Holy Bible when they speak of His transfiguration before them. This was simply a preview to them of what would occur in the future to a generation that would witness all the signs of His second coming.

P.S. Peter also refers to it in one of his letters.

😉

Originally posted by RJHinds
The some Jesus was speaking of was Peter, James, and John as is explained in the Holy Bible when they speak of His transfiguration before them.

Sorry bro but you are wrong according to Luke 9. When Jesus said those words, all of His disciples were with him. The Transfiguration happened "about 8 days later."

Luke 9
18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him...

27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

Originally posted by sumydid
Sorry bro but you are wrong according to Luke 9. When Jesus said those words, all of His disciples were with him. The Transfiguration happened "about 8 days later."

Luke 9
18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him...

27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of G ...[text shortened]... the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

How does that make me wrong? Is it because I said Peter, James, and John instead of Peter, John and James? 😏

P.S. You got to remember that I am just a redneck. Getting things in exact order is not one of my strong points.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus was not referring to the life span of the generation He was then addressing to fulfill the promise. He was referring to a future generation that would see all the signs of His coming. It was this future generation that will not pass away before all is fulfilled.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

no he wasn't referring to some future generation. "some standing here" is not a future generation.

Originally posted by sumydid
No I'm not grasping at straws, though I'm sure you'd like to think your argument is so compelling, my faith is crumbling like a house of cards in the wind.

My point was, Jesus said something meaningful, remarkable. "Some of you shall not taste death until the kingdom returns with power." It wouldn't be remarkable or mentionable at all if the kingdom was ...[text shortened]... e that is deserved. And if you're wearing a skirt or a kilt, a curtsy will do just fine.

your arguments are not valid. there are several gospels and this idea is repeated among them in the context of a single human lifetime.

the contextual phrase of 'some standing here would not taste death till all be fulfilled' is reinforced by the contextual phrase of 'this generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled'

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. [28] I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

he is talking about people standing around him hearing his words. he is talking about this generation, meaning the one he was addressing. these verses reinforce each other. jesus is not addressing some future generation that hasn't been born yet. jesus is not talking about people living for 2000+ years.

you (much like the disciples of jesus did) have to come up with torturous misinterpretations of these verses to keep your false god alive after the failure of the kingdom of god to arrive with power on schedule.