Originally posted by amannion
Having lots of people read something (or at least buy it) doesn't make it any more or less convincing.
Lots of people agreed that societies were full of witches during the middle ages. Didn't make them right.

I know. People buy the book and never read it.
But, I was responding to what pupil posted. And in that context I think I made a proper responce. Although I could be wrong.

Originally posted by whodey
After discussing various topics with atheists and agnostics something has been bothering me. Many have alleged that the God of the Bible is not always logical and thus deduce that he cannot possibly exist. Also the God of the Bible at times seems contradictory. An example I guess would be when he commands us not to kill but then turns around and commands m ...[text shortened]... Do they not love them? Why does the parent not first try and reason with the two year old?

One doesn't need to be schizophrenic to understand that schizophrenics do illogical things.

Parents punish kids to stop them from doing wrong things in the future. God's punishment of hell never ends, so it has no corrective value. In fact, one wonders what value it has, other than vengeance.

If God is morally allowed to kill humans whenever he wishes, then our lives have no intrinsic value. I know of few people who are comfortable admitting, let alone defending, such a position.

Many of you theists seem indifferent when contradictions are pointed out - like you can't be bothered to explain why they are imagined or erroneous. It's like you don't really care about examining the details of your faith. You'd rather just believe by default and let the details take care of themselves.

Originally posted by josephw
And to think that an infinite and omniscient God inspired a book that a third grader can read and understand.

Should third graders be reading about two daughters getting Dad drunk and having sex with him? Where's all these fundie organizations when you need to get obscene books like the Bible banned from schools?

Originally posted by josephw
And to think that an infinite and omniscient God inspired a book that a third grader can read and understand.

If you are talking about the Bible, I'm sure a 3rd grader can "read" it , perhaps not some of the harder names, but I really question if a third grader can understand it. Some things are better understood with the back-drop of life experience. And it may be better if it is not understood in its entirety.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Should third graders be reading about two daughters getting Dad drunk and having sex with him? Where's all these fundie organizations when you need to get obscene books like the Bible banned from schools?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A third grader cannot really artiuclate the possibilties of what this account may be about. I can tell you what I think it is about in relation to the flood, but there is a lot in the Bible that is developmentally inappropiate for children.

Originally posted by kirksey957
This is exactly what I'm talking about. A third grader cannot really artiuclate the possibilties of what this account may be about. I can tell you what I think it is about in relation to the flood, but there is a lot in the Bible that is developmentally inappropiate for children.

You are perhaps reasoning without taking to account that the Holy Spirit illuminates portions of Scripture to human hearts in a way appropriate to them.

We do not only have the word of God. We have also the Spirit of God behind the word of God. And the Spirit of God illuminates approppriate light and truth to each individual personally.

We have the living word and the living God behind the Bible guiding each person. You would be amazed at the wisdom a child can derive from the Bible.

Is there potential for misunderstanding of confusion? Yes there is some. But is God too inept to navigate a hungry heart through these difficulties? No, God is not. He is able to navigagte the truth seeker whose hearts is opened to Him.

Originally posted by jaywill
You are perhaps reasoning without taking to account that the Holy Spirit illuminates portions of Scripture to human hearts in a way appropriate to them.

We do not only have the word of God. We have also the Spirit of God behind the word of God. And the Spirit of God illuminates approppriate light and truth to each individual personally.

We have t ...[text shortened]... culties? No, God is not. He is able to navigagte the truth seeker whose hearts is opened to Him.

I find it so frustrating when someone makes a point that is very reasonable and rational and has no attacking agenda and yet it is dismissed because they don't understand the Holy Spirit like someone else does.

I just hope one day I will be good enough.

Originally posted by jaywill
You are perhaps reasoning without taking to account that the Holy Spirit illuminates portions of Scripture to human hearts in a way appropriate to them.

We do not only have the word of God. We have also the Spirit of God behind the word of God. And the Spirit of God illuminates approppriate light and truth to each individual personally.

We have t ...[text shortened]... culties? No, God is not. He is able to navigagte the truth seeker whose hearts is opened to Him.

That's such a cop out.
In essence it says, if you believe this crap then you believe it. If not, it's not because it's wrong, you're just not open to its 'specialness'.

Originally posted by petrosianpupil
The parent - child analogy is not a good one as a parent cannot chose exactly what a child is going to be like or what the world is going to be like or know what the future is like.

You seem to want to create even more excuses to carry on your belief system.

You do not need to, it is possible to create a logically consistent system, so long as ...[text shortened]... to only give your message to small numbers of people in such an inefficient and unfair manner.

The parent/child analogy is valid in that you have a greater intellect attempting to be understood by lesser intellects. You continue to attempt to completly understand the logic of the greater intellect despite it being pointed out to you that such reasoning is skewed in that you do not have the intellectual capacity to completly understand the greater intellect of God if he really exists. Therefore, if he exists it is logical to assume that such gaps in logic MUST be present given our lesser intellectual abilities.

For example, how does one go about creating free will despite knowing the outcome of such free will. For us there is a disconnect in that we have no ability to completly fathom how one would or could go about such a task. It is equivalent to asking a 2 year old to do calculus.

Originally posted by petrosianpupil
This is a dangerous and repressive line of thought.

Many of the greatest mathematical minds produced great leaps in our understanding of the universe by understanding aspects of the infinite.

Newton was widely criticised by religious figures because of his supposed arrogance.

Archimedes, Newton and Einstein all produced great advances by considering the nature of infinitely big and infinitely small.

They did it by logical thought.

I don't think any one here is condeming logical thought. I think what is being said here is that it is futile for the finite to try and completly understand the infinite. I am not saying that it is not productive and that we can learn things from studying the unknown, however, one should do so with a sense of humility and understanding ones limitations.

There is a wise saying that says the more one understands, the more one realizes he knows nothing at all. If this is indeed true, knowledge will help bring us humility in such matters, not arrogance.

Originally posted by kirksey957
If you are talking about the Bible, I'm sure a 3rd grader can "read" it , perhaps not some of the harder names, but I really question if a third grader can understand it. Some things are better understood with the back-drop of life experience. And it may be better if it is not understood in its entirety.

And without the indwelling Holy Spirit the bible can't be uderstood at all.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Should third graders be reading about two daughters getting Dad drunk and having sex with him? Where's all these fundie organizations when you need to get obscene books like the Bible banned from schools?

Then you have no objection to third graders reading "Heather has two mommies"?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
One doesn't need to be schizophrenic to understand that schizophrenics do illogical things.

Parents punish kids to stop them from doing wrong things in the future. God's punishment of hell never ends, so it has no corrective value. In fact, one wonders what value it [b]has, other than vengeance.

If God is morally allowed to kill humans whene ...[text shortened]... r faith. You'd rather just believe by default and let the details take care of themselves.[/b]

But the Biblical God also punishes to help people stop from sinning. The Bible says that whom he loves he corrects just as a parent with a rod in hand. However, some do not heed such correction. Some continue in their wicked ways and wax worse and worse. This is problematic in that such wickedness has influence and sway over those who are exposed to it or who suffer from it. Perhaps allowing these people to be killed off is in itself an act to help preserve those who would be influenced by such wickedness or who may fall prey to their wickedness. Therefore, such corrective action has value in that although a percentage of the wicked may perish eternally, the greater bulk of humanity may be spared a similar fate had there been no such corrective action for such wickedness.

As far as your assertion that human life has no intrinsic value to God because he can kill human being at will, this is absurd from a Biblical perspective. After all, he had his Son killed to save all of humanity. Does his Son have no intrinsic value as well?

You may think eternal danmnation to be unfair. I think every believer has grappled with such an unsettling thought. However, punishment in general is never a pleasant pospect. Once one enters the spiritual realm, however, one enters into an eternal realm. Therefore, what you are when you enter is what you will be for all of eternity. Conversly, the material realm we live in currently is temperal and subject to change. This is the arena for corrective action, not the spiritual realm. Its known in the Bible as a the era of grace.

Originally posted by josephw
Then you have no objection to third graders reading "Heather has two mommies"?

Why would that be a problem?
Unless you're a bigot, I see no problem at all in having students read about the variety and diversity of human cultures and societies.

Originally posted by josephw
Then you have no objection to third graders reading "Heather has two mommies"?

I haven't read the book, but so long as it does not contain sexually explicit material, I wouldn't have a problem with 3rd graders reading it.