08 Jan 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat you choose to call 'transformation' is clearly demonstrated in the fossil record. Whether that 'transformation' is a consequence of gradual adaptation or some other more dramatic and as yet not understood mechanism is not yet clear.
No, there is incontrovertible evidence that adaptation occurs. There is not a single piece of empirical evidence that transmutation happens. To deny the supernatural on no other basis than a personal bias is hardly rational, is it.
I would say that denying the supernatural until such a time as there is evidence supporting it (thus making it not 'super'natural any more) is entirely rational.
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by avalanchethecatits transmutation and i don't think the fossil record can be used to establish it. Quite the contrary, entire groups appear in the fossil record without precedent.
What you choose to call 'transformation' is clearly demonstrated in the fossil record. Whether that 'transformation' is a consequence of gradual adaptation or some other more dramatic and as yet not understood mechanism is not yet clear.
I would say that denying the supernatural until such a time as there is evidence supporting it (thus making it not 'super'natural any more) is entirely rational.
If you want to limit your search for truth to unintelligent agencies then its your affair.
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'd be happy to consider your insights into the fossil record, but this isn't really the subject of this discussion. What I'm asking is how do you justify your belief that biblical scripture is divinely inspired? How do you justify your rejection of scriptural bases of other faiths?
its transmutation and i don't think the fossil record can be used to establish it. Quite the contrary, entire groups appear in the fossil record without precedent.
If you want to limit your search for truth to unintelligent agencies then its your affair.
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08 Jan 15
8 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
volved.[/b]
I do not believe we have all the answers explaining the origins and evolution of life. I think the evidence strongly suggests that we have some of the right answers and have revealed some of the mechanisms involved.
Okay.
Remember you spoke of "veneration" of the Bible above?
Well, I think there's recognizing that animals change is one thing and "venerating" of Evolution as an all-encompassing answer to reality of all known life, is another.
I would wonder how you would regard the letter of Second Corinthians by the Apostle Paul. Here we have something quite unique. We have a virtual autobiography of a first century Christian apostle. The inner workings of his mind can be closely examined.
I mean if we had a personal letter from Hector to Helen, then we might really have some considerably serious artifacts confirming something of Homer's story. Or if we had a letter from Ajax discussing last week's battle with the Trojans, then we would really have some serious confirming info to consider.
We have in the Second Corinthian letter an apostle who has been FORCED to talk like a braggart to a skeptical local church under his care, in order to squelch rampant rumors that he is NOT a geniune apostle of Jesus Christ.
This is no small matter. The inner psychology of an apostle forced to speak for himself something to vindicate his apostolic experience and authority to an audience somewhat akin to a skeptical Internet Forum room like this peppering him with examinations.
And we get to see what makes this man tick, this man who authored some 13 of the 27 New Testament books.
At the very least you cannot doubt that HE HIMSELF was totally given to the things about Jesus Christ he was writing. Just maybe, he knows what he's talking about.
Second Corinthians - virtually Paul's little autobiography.
PS, Now since you're arguing with the Jehovah's Witness. I'll step out.
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonshipTo me Second Corinthians reads very much like a senior figure, indeed an architect of a religious order striving to maintain and order his church and it's members. It in no way suggests to me that his writings were inspired by god.I do not believe we have all the answers explaining the origins and evolution of life. I think the evidence strongly suggests that we have some of the right answers and have revealed some of the mechanisms involved.
Okay.
Remember you spoke of "veneration" of the Bible above?
Well, I think there's recognizing that animals [i]cha ...[text shortened]... ittle autobiography.
PS, Now since you're arguing with the Jehovah's Witness. I'll step out.
I'm not arguing with the Witness. He's just trying to divert the discussion into the old evolution/not evolution argument.
I think it's pretty clear that our discussion should probably come to an end anyway. If you had anything which I would consider reasonable in defence of your position I'm pretty sure you would have posted it by now. We'll just have to agree to differ - you are not able to clearly state your position in a way which will make sense to me, I am not able to clearly state my position in a way which will make sense to you. This would appear to be a weakness in your god's chosen method of disseminating his word, but I guess you probably don't see it that way. Thanks for keeping it civil anyway, it makes a change from most exchanges here!
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieTransmutation!? LOL!!! What a doosh.
No, there is incontrovertible evidence that adaptation occurs. There is not a single piece of empirical evidence that transmutation happens. To deny the supernatural on no other basis than a personal bias is hardly rational, is it.
08 Jan 15
Thank you avelanchethecat. You said that very well. I agree with you about evolution. I choose to believe that God is behind it, but this is a religious opinion. I don't pretend that I am doing science when I say it, nor do I want it taught in science classrooms. I can't prove that my religion is the true one. That is why it is called Faith.
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe fact that I do not find merit in your particular brand of faith does not mean that I have limited my search for truth to unintelligent agencies.
sigh as someone else who has also limited his search for truth to unintelligent agencies, i suggest you read this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmutation_of_species
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by catstormI did not know that, but it sounds like a pretty reasonable position. It would appear to be pretty difficult to argue against a form of creationism which incorporates modern evolutionary science.
Creation Science now admits that speciation is a genuine process. They formerly denied it. Genesis did not change. Their opinion changed.
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08 Jan 15
6 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
To me Second Corinthians reads very much like a senior figure, indeed an architect of a religious order striving to maintain and order his church and it's members. It in no way suggests to me that his writings were inspired by god.
What would an "inspired" by God writing look like to you?
What would you expect would be the characteristic of a book overseen, and spiritually "breathed out" by God ? I have to consider why this writer is going through the things he has been enduring.
"We are pressed on every side but not constricted, unable to find a way out but not utterly without a way out.
Persecuted but not abandoned; cast down but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus' sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
So then death operates in us, but life in you ... Knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will make us stand before Him with you.
For all things are for your sakes that the grace which has abounded through the greater number may cause the thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.
Therefore we do not lose heart; but though our outer man man is decaying, yet out inner man is being renewed day by day.
For our momentary lightness of affliction works out for us, more and more surpassingly, an eternal weight of glory."
The man was mad or perhaps he is aware of something that is worth enduring any amount of misfortune in order to make known to the world.
" Ministers of Christ are they? I speak as being beside myself, I more so! In labors more abundantly, in imprisonments more abundantly, in stripes excessively, in deaths often.
Under the hands of the Jews five times I received forty stripes less one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep;
In journeys often, in dangers of rivers, in dangers of robbers, in dangers from my race, in dangers from the Gentiles, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers in the sea, in dangers among false brothers.
In labor and hardship; in watchings often; in hunger and thirst; in fastings often; in cold and nakedness -
Apart from the things which have not been mentioned, there is this: the crowd of cares pressing upon me daily, the anxious concern for all the churches.
Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I myself do not burn?
If I must boast, I will boast of the things of my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus , He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
In Damascus, the governor under Aretas the king guarded the city of the Damascus in order to seize me."
This is the man who FIRST persecuted the Christian church with obsessive zeal. Someone changed him. This is the man whom the resurrected Christ said He would show him how much he would have to suffer for His name's sake.
No, avalanchethecat. The ring of authenticity encourages me in my Christian walk that this pioneer of the Christian life was used by God to be an example before the rest of us. With the whole Bible, I think the letter is inspired by God.
08 Jan 15
They needed it to get all the animals on the Ark. Evolution happens only within kinds, though no one defines what a kind is. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis is asking people to stop using the Second Law of Thermodynamics against evolution because it is a bad argument. If Creationism is the clear teaching of Genesis, then why does it change all the time?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI know what it is. It's a theory which went out of fashion about 150 years ago. Yet here youare in the 21st century wittering on about it. But I guess that's what to expect from a man who wilfully doesn't read science books for fear they might diminish his faith. 😀
sigh as someone else who has also limited his search for truth to unintelligent agencies, i suggest you read this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmutation_of_species
08 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonshipWell I'm genuinely pleased that it works for you. In fact, to a certain degree I'm even a little envious. Unfortunately god evidently has different plans for me, as he's granted me a level of scepticism which won't permit me to follow your example.To me Second Corinthians reads very much like a senior figure, indeed an architect of a religious order striving to maintain and order his church and it's members. It in no way suggests to me that his writings were inspired by god.
What would an "inspired" by God writing look like to you?
What would you expect would be the char ...[text shortened]... e an example before the rest of us. With the whole Bible, I think the letter is inspired by God.