27 Aug 11
Several threads have dwelled on this topic already. Here is my take on things, for what it's worth:
Peter writes that "ALL scripture is inspired by God, and fruitful for correction and instruction in holiness".
This does not, however, mean that everything written in the Bible must be taken as being literally what God says to us . It can be actually the recording of what somebody said (and factually so) but that it is his or her own opinion. This would STILL make it "profitable for correction, etc". since it makes a certain point and gives a specific message.
Three obvious examples are the following:
1 Job's friends. For several chapters in the book of Job we have reams and reams of advice and teachings, much of which is often used in sermons quite uncritically. The fact, however, is that all these many chapters (preceded by who it was that said this) were ONLY the opinions of Job's (not very loyal) friends. In the end, God dissociates Himself from everything that they said, and even asks Job to sacrifice for them, for all their foolish, and arrogant, utterances. So, my point is that the words were reported accurately, but they were the (wrong) opinions of men, not God.
2 Solomon's writings, specifically Ecclesiastes. Here we have a man, (a very clever and wise man, granted) but who at the end of his life became bitter and cynical. (Maybe caused by his hundred's of wives and concubines!). His words "all is vanity" is not the way that the world should be viewed by a truly spiritual person! Using Ecclesiastes in a sermon, should be a lesson of what is a "bad example", rather than "God's word to us".
3 To get to Paul's teachings, (which have also been the subject of several threads, e.g. the role of women) we have it clearly from Paul's own pen that at least some of what he writes is his own personal opinion, and not to be taken as gospel. At the same time, many of his societal instructions (or rather suggestions) are culturally determined, and acknowledged as being so.
Bottom line of what I am trying to say is that if we accept the fact that the parchments have been faithfully recorded and copied over time (which is a totally different debate and which I am NOT addressing in this thread) it means that the words as recorded by the original scribes are accurate reflections of what happened and what was said, but that everything must still be interpreted and examined as to Who said it to Whom and under What circumstances, before blindly saying THIS is what God says!
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by CalJustExactly !!!
Several threads have dwelled on this topic already. Here is my take on things, for what it's worth:
Peter writes that "ALL scripture is inspired by God, and fruitful for correction and instruction in holiness".
This does not, however, mean that everything written in the Bible must be taken as being literally what God says to us . It can be actua ...[text shortened]... hom and under What circumstances, before blindly saying THIS is what God says!
27 Aug 11
2 edits
Originally posted by CalJustNice post. However, how do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's literal word? Also, if all passages in the Bible are not God's words, are all passages in the Bible at least inspired by God? If the following passage is not God's word but instead merely the personal opinon of Paul, did God at least insprire these words in the New Testament of the Bible:
Several threads have dwelled on this topic already. Here is my take on things, for what it's worth:
Peter writes that "ALL scripture is inspired by God, and fruitful for correction and instruction in holiness".
This does not, however, mean that everything written in the Bible must be taken as being literally what God says to us . It can be actua hom and under What circumstances, before blindly saying THIS is what God says!
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
27 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsMany Christian fundamentalists believe that the Bible is God's word no matter the human authors. That God wrote the Bible through man, and it is all God's words, and not just inspired by God. While man was inspired by God to write the Bible, and God's inspiration is in the Bible, the words of the Bible are literally God's words, and the human scribes were just vehicles and not the ultimate author. God is the author for all literal words in the Bible.
Exactly !!!
And that it would be an incoherent slipperly slope to pick and choose which scripture you want to say is or is not God's word, and which scripture you want to label as not God's word but personal opinion of the author, for example.
For instance, how do you know if these following two scriptures are God's words or not? Are both at least inspired by God?
1. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. God's word or personal opinion of the human author? How do you know? If this is just personal opinion of the human author, are these words inspired by God?
2. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. God's word or personal opinion of the human author? How do you know?
How do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's word?
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by moon1969the Bible is indeed the word of God, but not the words of God. In it is contained spiritual truth about the creator, and about humanity. The entire work encompasses virtually any human condition we might encounter, and can draw wisdom from it that we can apply to our own lives.
Many Christian fundamentalists believe that the Bible is God's word no matter the human authors. That God wrote the Bible through man, and it is all God's words, and not just inspired by God. While man was inspired by God to write the Bible, and God's inspiration is in the Bible, the words of the Bible are literally God's words, and the human scribes were ...[text shortened]... know?
How do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's word?
Many Christians, including myself, are NOT biblical literalists
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by CalJustOf course you overlook two important issues:
Bottom line of what I am trying to say is that if we accept the fact that the parchments have been faithfully recorded and copied over time (which is a totally different debate and which I am NOT addressing in this thread) it means that the words as recorded by the original scribes are accurate reflections of what happened and what was said, but that everyth ...[text shortened]... o Who said it to Whom and under What circumstances, before blindly saying THIS is what God says!
1. What exactly constitutes 'scripture'?
2. If God is all knowing, why did he inspire people to write such confusing and misinterpreted stuff?
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by moon1969Actually, if you read my post again, I showed you how to distinguish between what is truly God's word (as well as God's opinion!) and what is not.
For instance, how do you know if these following two scriptures are God's words or not? Are both at least inspired by God?
1. "Let your women keep silence in the churches..."
2 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son..."
How do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's word?
In your two examples, the first is Paul's opinion for the sake of order in the early church, in line with the custom of the day. The second is a quotation of Jesus' words to Nicodemus and should be taken seriously.
There are important differences about where possible error (in the eyes of critics) can lie:
1 In the canon , in the first place, as twhitehead intimates. A debate for another time.
2. In the translations, which (as I said in another post) is to me a trivial problem, since we have the original documents and can therefore debate at length about how they SHOULD be translated (and I readily admit that several translations, e.g. the NEB, have major blunders)
3. No, in this thread I assume (which I actually believe, but take as read for the current argument) that the original writings are reported correctly and transmitted over centuries with minor discrepancies, most of which are identified and accepted. So the problem is whether what was written is doctrinally correct or merely a narrative of what the writer wrote.
As I write this, I realise that I am merely repeating my original post! Sorry!
One point that I agree with is that willy-nilly deciding what is in (inspired by God) or out (opinions of men) is a slippery slope. The key factor is probably what attitude and world view we have about God and bring to the study of His word.
Many theologians (especially in the German Higher Criticism) expunge everything from the Bible that requires any measure of faith - typically the virgin birth, the resurrection, many of the miracles, etc etc. What you have left is a shambles of myths and fairy tales, certainly nothing to get exited about or even lay down your life for!
If you accept that the Bible is a collectioin of historical narratives, poetry, and personal writings, you must really use your God-given common sense to navigate it!
Oh, and btw, Genesis 1 is a beautiful poem (with lots 'n lots of doctrinal implications!) 😉
27 Aug 11
2 edits
Originally posted by moon1969
Many Christian fundamentalists believe that the Bible is God's word no matter the human authors. That God wrote the Bible through man, and it is all God's words, and not just inspired by God. While man was inspired by God to write the Bible, and God's inspiration is in the Bible, the words of the Bible are literally God's words, and the human scribes were know?
How do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's word?
2. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. God's word or personal opinion of the human author? How do you know?
How do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's word?
We do not simply have God's word alone. WE HAVE THE LIVING GOD.
Again, it is not just a matter of having God's word. In addition the believer has GOD'S PRESENCE as a loving, patient, wise DAD. And just like a DAD doesn't expect the newborn child to do poll vaults the first year, niether does God expect us to act BEYOND our spiritual AGE and spiritial MATURITY.
How does this work ? You read the Bible. You read 20 things. The living Spirit may impress your heart with just ONE of the 20 things. When you allow that ONE thing to be obeyed and change you, you GROW. When you grow your capacity to obey more grows and your discernment grows.
He is not called the "heavenly Father" for nothing. Let the word that the Holy Spirit expressly convicts you with be the first word that you agree with. Let it work in you. Obey as He impresses you. It is a book of LIFE. It is a book to change you by life.
Now a few confirming passages to what I just wrote:
1.) PROVING THE WILL OF GOD - Romans 12:1 - "And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect."
You prove what is God's speaking and will first by allowing Him to TRANSFORM you through the renewing of the mind. If stubburnly intend that the living God will have no effect on the way you think, you can question "How do I know what is God's word?" from now until you die. You will remain locked in your unrenewed fallen mind.
2.) OBEDIENCE WILL LEAD TO KNOWING - "Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
If anyone resolves to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself." (John 7:16,17)
You need to go over the Bible with a Geiger Counter spiritually. That is like a spiritual Radiation Detection device. You need to discern what the Holy Spirit is convicting you of. When you get that light you WALK in that light.
God will not waste His light where he knows one will not walk in that light.
Don't grumble whether the earth was created in six days or six epochs. Find what matter God is convicting you of as a need to be changed. Repent there. Confess there. Ask Him to enter there into that part of your life. Walk in the light that He has shown you. When you see how He transforms your soul you will be convinced of what is the word of God.
You know it did not originate with you as the source. You become confirmed that you are dealing with a speaking God and a living Christ.
27 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by moon1969How do you pick and choose? Well Paul very eloquently stated in 1 Corinthians 13 that "we see through a dark glass". Basically he conceeded that we know very little and what we do know is infantile and fleeting, however, love is what is eternal and meaninful. Luckily, Paul then actually defines what kind of love he is talking about. Likewise, Christ indicated that love is the beginning and end of the law and if you walk in love, you will keep God's commandments without trying.
Nice post. However, how do you pick and choose which passages in the Bible are God's literal word? Also, if all passages in the Bible are not God's words, are all passages in the Bible at least inspired by God? If the following passage is not God's word but instead merely the personal opinon of Paul, did God at least insprire these words in the New Testa was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
27 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by DowardWhat wisdom can we draw from this word of God below, and how do you think we should apply this word of God in our own lives?
the Bible is indeed the word of God, but not the words of God. In it is contained spiritual truth about the creator, and about humanity. The entire work encompasses virtually any human condition we might encounter, and can draw wisdom from it that we can apply to our own lives.
Many Christians, including myself, are NOT biblical literalists
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by whodeyI guess these eloquent words of Paul could be about love. Maybe in a partiarchial sense in that women can be child-like and thus need to know their place so that men can love and take care of them. The good old days. God and Paul knew.
How do you pick and choose? Well Paul very eloquently stated in 1 Corinthians 13 that "we see through a dark glass". Basically he conceeded that we know very little and what we do know is infantile and fleeting, however, love is what is eternal and meaninful. Luckily, Paul then actually defines what kind of love he is talking about. Likewise, Christ indic ...[text shortened]... and end of the law and if you walk in love, you will keep God's commandments without trying.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
27 Aug 11
Originally posted by moon1969
I guess these eloquent words of Paul could be about love. Maybe in a partiarchial sense in that women can be child-like and thus need to know their place so that men can love and take care of them. The good old days. God and Paul knew.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn ...[text shortened]... was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
Verse 38 -"But if anyone ignores this, let him ignore it."
Now, out of all the exhortations of Paul in his 13 or so epistles, find me this equivalent caveat for a command of Paul concerning anything else.
You might just find one. So I'm out here on a limb. Show me where else Paul said "But if anyone ignores it, let him ignore it."
28 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by moon1969Paul once said in Galations 3:28 that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, man or female and that all are one in God.
I guess these eloquent words of Paul could be about love. Maybe in a partiarchial sense in that women can be child-like and thus need to know their place so that men can love and take care of them. The good old days. God and Paul knew.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
Being a Biblical road scholar that you seem to be, why do you ignore this? You are obviously misreading what Paul is saying.
28 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI am not sure what you are suggesting or asking. Let me say that you somewhat misquote the verse.
Paul said "But if anyone ignores it, let him ignore it."
NIV 14:38 "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."
KJ 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
It seems to me Paul is saying if you ignore his teachings, you do so at your own peril. Thus, we should follow his teachings below:
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.