Justice and Hell

Originally posted by DragonFriend
If we are to draw our own conclusions in a vaccuum, I'd agree. But God has interacted with us. That's the whole purpose of our creation. And through this relationship with Him we can come to know Him. No guessing required.

DF

I know there's been plenty of discussion already, but I want to return to the original post.

It assumes - or at least it seems to me that it does - that the PURPOSE of hell is punishment.

I'm not persuaded that's correct. Certainly CS Lewis didn't seem to think so. I'm reading "The Great Divorce" at the moment and, while it's certainly not his best writing as a fictional narrative, it's theology on this topic is pretty clear. People are in hell because they've 'chosen' to be there.

But a better characterisation of the choice is: to not let go of the things that are keeping them from heaven.

Now, the hell he describes is not a place of fire and brimstone and devils stretching people on racks. It's a grey miserable place where people bicker and do their best to isolate themselves from each other. But, I think there's room in his theology for an explanation for 'punishment' in hell that would run like this:

- devils live in hell because they can't live in heaven
- there are people in hell too
- devils enjoy torturing people (presumably it helps relieve their own misery a little)
- there are plenty of people available at home for them to torture, so why not do it?

Punishment then becomes an outcome, rather than the intentional purpose, of being in hell.

Originally posted by orfeo

Punishment then becomes an outcome, rather than the intentional purpose, of being in hell.

Originally posted by telerion
Except that once again God being the omniscient, omnipotent Creator makes "outcome" equivalent to "intentional purpose."

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Well, you choose to believe the bible's claims, but even if God himself spoke to you, you could not assume he was telling the truth. It would be trivial for God to deceive you, if he wished.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
He is soooo much greater than I, that yes, I suppose He could lie to me and I would never be able to tell the difference. But that's not who He is. God is all about truth, so to lie would be contrary to His nature.

DF

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, if I dont believe in God then if am covered in sin and therefore belong to Satan! I thought I was made by God how come I now belong to Satan? What happened to free will?

[b]Satan was an angel created by God, but rebelled against God. He is thus a fallen angel. His time of eternal damnation is coming, when he and all his followers will be cast into ...[text shortened]... lake of fire.
Why the fire? For what purpose other than those listed in my origional post?[/b]

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
If a flawless being does not have free-will, then a flawless God does not have free-will, and your entire belief system crumbles to the ground.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Thanks for the correction. I was rather vague.

I would rather say that a "flawless" human being would not have the full capacity of free-will, as it would not be able to choose what is detrimental to itself.

But God and man do not have the same capacities. If man was flawless (and had the full capacity of free-will), then man would be equal to God.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
You believe that believers who end up in heaven will no longer sin, correct? If so, what has happened to these humans? Have they lost the capacity for free will?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Actually I believe that those who have been cleansed, purified and sanctified from their sin will go to Heaven. (They that have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.) They are the ones who resist temptation and do not wish to sin as they know that sin seperates them from God.

Once they go to Heaven, there will be no more temptations (due to the f ...[text shortened]... in Heaven are the ones that hate sin in the first place, and they would have chosen not to sin.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
How do you [b]know that's not who he is?[/b]

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Wouldn't it have been much easier for God to just start with the 'new-body' humans? You know, just skip the whole creation-earth-man from dust thing. There would have been so much less suffering that way.

The end result shows what God really wants: perfect robots who will live only to worship him.

If there are no temptations in heaven, what motivated Lucifer's rebellion?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Wouldn't it have been much easier for God to just start with the 'new-body' humans? You know, just skip the whole creation-earth-man from dust thing. There would have been so much less suffering that way.

As God never makes a mistake, he had a specific purpose by allowing us to fight the spiritual battle on earth. I can only imagine that the reas ...[text shortened]... emain faithful to God. I believe humans and angles were created with different capacities.[/b]

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Apparently a robot gives God more joy, because that's what he ends up with in heaven for eternity.

All your suffering is for naught, because you'll be deprived of your free will once you reach heaven. People wouldn't need 'new bodies' if they could overcome sin.

I thought you said that there was no more temptation in heaven with Lucifer and his ...[text shortened]... ut you also say the remaining angels have free will, so they could fall, tempt others, etc.