11 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwI thought the answer to that would be fairly obvious to anyone with the ability to discern? They are trying to find a pretext upon which to condemn Jesus, like breaking the Sabbath (a false charge) or making himself equal to God (another false charge)
[b]"Its not a claim for equality..."
Then why did the Jews accuse Jesus of making Himself equal with God when He said "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work"?
I'd really like to know how you will answer that![/b]
11 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"A comparison of Genesis 1:1 with other Scripture clearly teaches that all of creation is the work of the second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:15-17, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” John 1:1-4, “In eternity past the Word has always existed and the Word has always existed face to face with the God (the Father) and the Word has always existed as God. He was in eternity past face to face with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.”
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” He claimed preexistence in explicit and unmistakable terms. John 16:26-28, “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have l ...[text shortened]... t 3 of 9) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
The preincarnate Christ appeared to the patriarch Abraham (Genesis 18:1 and his Isaac (Genesis 26:23-25), and Isaac’s son Jacob whose name was later changed to Israel (Genesis 28:10-22; 31:10-13; 32:24-32; 35:1). The Lord also appeared to Moses (Exodus 3:2) and his successor Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15). It was the Lord who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel’s three friends (Daniel 3:19-30). The prophet Isaiah presents His testimony concerning the preexistence of Christ in Isaiah 9:6-7.
Isaiah 9:6-7, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.”
The expression “the Everlasting Father” means that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God in human flesh (Jn. 8:58). The prophet Micah also testifies to the preexistence of Christ. Micah 5:2, “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.” “From the days of eternity” is an obvious reference to the fact that the baby named Jesus by Mary in Bethlehem existed from eternity past.
The Apostle John’s Testimony of the Preexistence of Christ: In the very first paragraph of his gospel, the apostle John testifies to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnate Word of God, existed from eternity past. John 1:1-4, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.”
John 1:14, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” The prepositional phrase “in the beginning” that appears in John 1:1-2 refers to eternity past. “Word” is the noun logos, which is one of the many titles for the Lord Jesus Christ. It denotes the fact that He reveals God to men, thus He is the perfect and complete revelation of God. He is the perfect manifestation of the Trinity. The Word is the personal manifestation of deity and the life of the Trinity, which is eternal.
The noun logos indicates that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe (John 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:3, 10). It expresses His divine omnipotence, thus, the word indicates that the Lord Jesus Christ is the author, sustainer and giver of life. Notice, that the Word of God who existed from eternity past became a human being according to John 1:14, thus making clear the preexistence of Jesus Christ.
In 1 John 1:1-4, the apostle John teaches concerning the preexistence of Christ. “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us, what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.”
“What” is the relative pronoun hos, which should be translated “who” and not “what” since it is a personal reference to the unique theanthropic person of history, the Lord Jesus Christ. The figure of speech called constructio ad sensum is in effect here where sense agreement supersedes tactical agreement. Therefore..." Pastor/Teacher Bill Wenstrom (first 5 of 9)
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
11 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFunny how people accept so readily the fallible teachings of men [or idle statements by Pharisees] when the authority Christ himself is saying the complete opposite.
I know, its pretty low even for a trinitarian. The amusing thing is how they try to build a case for their doctrine on the most flimsiest and ludicrous of grounds and then to decry that anyone that doesn't except their lack of rationality is a heretic and incapable of rational thought themselves.
John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
What part of "is greater than" means "equal to"?
Notice also how one simple sentence from the mouth of Jesus Christ overturns all the flawed but lengthy analysis of some posters.
Wordy posts almost always = BS.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Funny how people accept so readily the fallible teachings of men [or idle statements by Pharisees] when the authority Christ himself is saying the complete opposite.
John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
What part of "is greater than" means "equal to"?
Notice also how one simple sentence from the mouth of Jesus ...[text shortened]... t overturns all the flawed but lengthy analysis of some posters.
Wordy posts almost always = BS.
"Commentary: Perhaps more than any other, this verse has been quoted by non-Trinitarians as proof that Jesus could not be true God. In the view of those denying the Trinity, if the Father is "greater" than Jesus, Jesus must be teaching that He is ontologically inferior to the Father. A careful consideration of this verse in context, however, reveals that such a view in untenable.
As Jesus approaches the Cross, He begins to speak more plainly about leaving His disciples and returning to His Father. When the disciples display a self-centered - though natural - response, Jesus reproves them: "If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father." But why should they rejoice when Jesus goes to His Father? Is it because Jesus will be happier there? Or because He will be past His suffering on the Cross? These would be answers we might give a loved one who, upon hearing that we had a terminal illness, cried out, "But what will I do without you?" What we would certainly not say in such a circumstance is: "Rejoice for me that I'm going to God, because God is a superior being than I am." Such a remark would provide little comfort (since obviously God is superior to any created being) and instead would bespeak an intolerable hubris - as though we were so wonderful that our loved ones would actually confuse us for God Himself!. If Jesus' disciples understood Him to be a mere man, or a lesser divinity of some sort, as non-Trinitarians tell us, reprimanding them in this way would would seem almost a non-sequitor. "We know God is a greater being than you are, Master," the disciples could reasonably respond, "but why should we rejoice in such an obvious truth?"
The word translated "greater" (meizon) does not mean greater in the sense of a higher type of being, but rather greater in the sense of position or authority. This is the meaning cited by modern Greek lexicons, and is exampled by dozens of Biblical and extra-Biblical sources (see Grammatical Analysis, below). Jesus repeats the phrase, "A servant is not greater than his Master," twice in this same discourse (John 13:16; 15:20). The same Greek word (meizon) occurs in each of these verses. No one would suggest that a servant is a lesser being than his Master. A Master is "greater" than a servant because he occupies a position of greater status, dignity, and authority. If we let these other examples guide us, Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth. This meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (John 17:5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in coming to earth (Philippians 2:6), taking the form of a servant (doulos, the same word Jesus uses in John 13:16 and 15:20). Now Jesus was returning to the Father to regain His former glory, where He could accomplish all the wonderful things promised to the disciples in His final discourse. If the disciples had considered the import of Jesus' words, they would have realized the exaltation that awaited the Son, and would have rejoiced.
Thus, there is little contextual or lexical support for the idea that Jesus is teaching His ontological inferiority to the Father in this verse. He is speaking in the highest terms of the positional greatness of the Father - a position to which Jesus is soon to return, there to be an even greater blessing to the disciples and an assurance of their own paths to Heaven." http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_28.htm
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999"... for my Father is greater than I" John 14:28:
Funny how people accept so readily the fallible teachings of men [or idle statements by Pharisees] when the authority Christ himself is saying the complete opposite.
John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
What part of "is greater than" means "equal to"?
Notice also how one simple sentence from the mouth of Jesus ...[text shortened]... t overturns all the flawed but lengthy analysis of some posters.
Wordy posts almost always = BS.
"Not with respect to the divine nature, which is common to them both, and in which they are both one; and the Son is equal to the Father, having the self-same essence, perfections, and glory: nor with respect to personality, the Son is equally a divine person, as the Father is, though the one is usually called the first, the other the second person; yet this priority is not of nature, which is the same in both; nor of time, for the one did not exist before the other; nor of causality, for the Father is not the cause of the Son's existence; nor of dignity, for the one has not any excellency which is wanting in the other; but of order and manner of operation: these words are to be understood, either with regard to the human nature, in which he was going to the Father, this was prepared for him by the Father, and strengthened and supported by him, and in which he was made a little lower than the angels, and consequently must be in it inferior to his Father; or with regard to his office as Mediator, in which he was the Father's servant, was set up and sent forth by him, acted under him, and in obedience to him, and was now returning to give an account of his work and service; or rather with regard to his present state, which was a state of humiliation: he was attended with many griefs and sorrows, and exposed to many enemies, and about to undergo an accursed death; whereas his Father was in the most perfect happiness and glory, and so in this sense "greater".
That is, more blessed and glorious than he; for this is not a comparison of natures, or of persons, but of states and conditions: now he was going to the Father to partake of the same happiness and glory with him, to be glorified with himself, with the same glory he had with him before the foundation of the world; wherefore on this account, his disciples ought to have rejoiced, and not have mourned."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-14-28.html
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou are a follower of men so you will reap the reward of men.
"... for my Father is greater than I" John 14:28:
"Not with respect to the divine nature, which is common to them both, and in which they are both one; and the Son is equal to the Father, having the self-same essence, perfections, and glory: nor with respect to personality, the Son is equally a divine person, as the Father is, though the one is usua ...[text shortened]... ."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-14-28.html
You are not a follower of Christ.
11 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Its pretty damning refutation of at least one of the elements of the trinity that being that God and Christ are co-equal. I wonder how a trinitarian explains the verse? GB's orthodox explanation of reference to the essence of God and Christ has never been very convincing for it relies for its efficacy on extra Biblical terms and interpretations of those terms rather than the very simple and direct understanding that Christ is subservient to God. Why people should want to elevate Christ to be co-equal with God is rather a mystery.
Funny how people accept so readily the fallible teachings of men [or idle statements by Pharisees] when the authority Christ himself is saying the complete opposite.
[b]John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
What part of "is greater than" means "equal to"?
Notice also how one simple sentence from the mouth of Je ...[text shortened]... erturns all the flawed but lengthy analysis of some posters.
Wordy posts almost always = BS.[/b]
11 Jun 15
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Robbie quoted the following:
Funny how people accept so readily the fallible teachings of men [or idle statements by Pharisees] when the authority Christ himself is saying the complete opposite.
[b]John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
What part of "is greater than" means "equal to"?
Notice also how one simple sentence from the mouth of Je ...[text shortened]... erturns all the flawed but lengthy analysis of some posters.
Wordy posts almost always = BS.[/b]
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
However, Robbie does not like the following:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:1, 14)
The Father is greater than the Son at this moment, because the Son has humbled himself to be in submission to the Father. But after His resurrection we read that Jesus says the following:
All AUTHORITY has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...
(Matthew 28:18-19)
And His disciples went away and baptized in the NAME of Jesus. (Acts 2:38)
HalleluYaHshua ! Praise the LORD !
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by RJHindsJesus also subjects himself to his father after his resurrection and thus your old argument stands refuted.
Robbie quoted the following:John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
However, Robbie does not like the following:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and ...[text shortened]... ...
(Matthew 28:18-19)
And His disciples went away and baptized in the NAME of Jesus.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28
The assertion that Christ is only lesser or subject at that moment therefore simply cannot be true.
11 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, it is true so that God may be all in all. and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of equal glory - God may be all in all as it was in the beginning.
Jesus also subjects himself to his father after his resurrection and thus your old argument stands refuted.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28
The assertion that Christ is only lesser or subject at that moment therefore simply cannot be true.
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
11 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsyes but the point you made is refute, that being that only at that specific time as a humble man is Jesus lesser than God, its simply not true because even after his resurrection Jesus subjects himself to his Father and conducts himself as a lesser one.
Yes, it is true so that [b]God may be all in all. and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of equal glory - God may be all in all as it was in the beginning.John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”[/b]
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat is not what it means. Notice that Jesus has ALL AUTHORITY after His resurrection. The Father and the Holy Spirit are under His authority. Then by submitting Himself back to the Father they are equal in glory again as it was in the beginning. It does not say the Father has ALL AUTHORITY. That is so God can be all in all (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).
yes but the point you made is refute, that being that only at that specific time as a humble man is Jesus lesser than God, its simply not true because even after his resurrection Jesus subjects himself to his Father and conducts himself as a lesser one.
11 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsno it doesn't it says that Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't mention anything about being equal, you simply made it up.
That is not what it means. Notice that Jesus has ALL AUTHORITY after His resurrection. The Father and the Holy Spirit are under His authority. Then by submitting Himself back to the Father they are equal in glory again as it was in the beginning. It does not say the Father has ALL AUTHORITY. That is so God can be all in all (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).
then the Son Himself also will be subjected 1 Corinthians 15:28
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt does not mention anything about the Father having all authority or is now greater than the Son either. It say God is all in all, which to me means they are all equal. 😏
no it doesn't it says that Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't mention anything about being equal, you simply made it up.
then the Son Himself also will be subjected 1 Corinthians 15:28