Originally posted by doodinthemoodDo you mean:
Did Jesus Christ exist? A thread for evidence and counter-evidence.
* Has anyone known by that name existed?
* Did the person referred to in the Bible exist.
* Did a person by that name exist who was later referred to in the Bible but possibly misrepresented.
^ Depends on your opinion. Individual questions could be:
Did anyone called Jesus Christ exist at roughly that time?
Did the Jesus referred to in the bible exist?
Was Jesus misinterpreted?
Did older religions have an influence on the Jesus portrayed in the bible?
that sort of stuff.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodI think to really evalute this you have to eliminate the influence of "mystery religions" added TO Christiandom AFTER the writing of the New Testament.
Because of the theory about Jesus' life being based on previous religions, known as mystery religions. It seemed the most fitting title.
In other words if some centries after the writing of the New Testament some people decided that they could make Christianity more popular by re-directing worship to Isis to Mary the mother of Jesus, I don't count that as "mystery religion's" influence on the initial writing of the New Testament Gospel.
If centries after the writing of the New Testament some people thought to attract more pagans into the "Church" Saturnalia was converted to Christmas on the 25th of December, I don't count that as "mystery religion's enfluence" on the New Testament documents.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodWell, if you are looking for independent sources outside the Bible to help verify such doctrines as the virgin birth I think the only sources would be Christian. After all, one would be hard pressed to not be a Christian if they verified for themselves that the virgin birth occured, thus, you only have Christian sources to verify such doctrines. On the other hand, the mere existance and subsequent crusifixian of Christ I think can be verified by a secular Jewish scholar named Josephus. However, his ressurection is a different matter. If one were to verify such an occurance, I think you will find the only sources to be once again "Christian". That is, if they really believed he was ressurected.
No, this is specifically about things like the origins of the virgin birth narrative, or the crucifiction narrative.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodIt is fairly clear from both Jewish and Christian writings around the time that JC was purported to live, that a revolutionary named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact exist. The Q'uran, a book that would certainly not be considered Christian, says that this Jesus was a prophet of God. Then the many writing of the early church, a few of which wound up in the New Testament adamantly express that Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was the Christ. Yes, none of these documents still exist today, however, due to the strict rules of scribing guilds, the copies that have been passed down can be considered to be at least quite similar to the originals. So, based on this literary evidence, one could come to the conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth, whether or not he was the Christ, did exist.
Did Jesus Christ exist? A thread for evidence and counter-evidence.
Originally posted by Big MacIf you are using the Q'uran as evidence for the existence of Jesus then you must either be Muslim or stupid.
It is fairly clear from both Jewish and Christian writings around the time that JC was purported to live, that a revolutionary named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact exist. The Q'uran, a book that would certainly not be considered Christian, says that this Jesus was a prophet of God. Then the many writing of the early church, a few of which wound up in the New ...[text shortened]... uld come to the conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth, whether or not he was the Christ, did exist.
Originally posted by whodeyDo you have more info on this Josephus fellow? I thought that he reported on the existence of Christians and their beliefs which makes him equivalent to a Christian source and not an 'independent' source.
On the other hand, the mere existance and subsequent crusifixian of Christ I think can be verified by a secular Jewish scholar named Josephus.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNot at all. I'm simply establishing that there is literary evidence for the existance of Jesus outside of the Bible and Josephus (the one usually used to cite an extra-Biblical source).
If you are using the Q'uran as evidence for the existence of Jesus then you must either be Muslim or stupid.
Although, the jury is still out on the latter accusation. But, I "Dare To Be Stupid." Get it? Anyone? Anyone?
The Josephus references have been known to be fake for a while now. In fact, an in-depth grammatical study needn't even be done, read the passage for yourself:
"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him."
Now, is that the writing of a non-christian source, or a later christian addition?