Jehovah Witness and Christianity?

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't know what your point is in saying that other gods are mentioned in the Bible. The real issue is WHAT is mentioned about these other gods.

[b]"I am Jehovah and there is no one else; Besides Me there is no God ..." (Isaiah 45😛5)

That should clue you that other gods mentioned in the Bible are either vanities or delusions or masquerading ev ...[text shortened]... e you one of those refering to many so-called gods and many lords?[/b]

Yet, somehow you believe in the Trinity. Weird.

The OT says OT monster God is the biggest baddest God, true enough. It also accepts the existence of other, lesser gods. In that, it is consistent with the Mormon belief system that there are "gods" below God. That is all I am saying.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The context says not merely that Jesus is prophesying like the OT prophets but also that he knows specific details about the timing of the events he is prophesying.

[b] And trying to read something so that it flatly contradicts the express wording of a document is acceptable only in LucifershammerWorld

Trying to read historical documents (fr ...[text shortened]... ign languages as though they were written in 21st century English is acceptable only in no1Land.[/b]

Except that he is saying SPECIFICALLY that he doesn't know the timing!🙄
Besides, some of the OT prophets made claims about the timing of their prophesies so Jesus is nothing special there.

Please cite to ANY translation that gives the passage to mean anything but that God (i.e. the Father) has specific knowledge of something that Jesus does not. We both know that none exist, so you are being deliberately misleading yet again with the red herring of "foreign language-English". Typical.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Except that he is saying SPECIFICALLY that he doesn't know the timing!🙄

Except that he gives clear hints that he does know the timing (at least vaguely) a few verses earlier (v.30).

In this case, the simplest translation would have been "see" or "perceive" (eido).

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I'm just simply reading it as it's presented to me. Jethro isn't presenting a treatise on inter-deity politics; he's presenting things as seen from the perspective of a worshipper of alternative objects. As such he's talking about "objects of worship" and not "existent beings".

Exodus 18:5 Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, came into the wilderness where Moses was encamped at the mountain of God, bringing Moses' sons and wife to him. 6 He sent word to Moses, "I, your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you, with your wife and her two sons." 7 Moses went out to meet his father-in-law; he bowed down and kissed him; each asked after the other's welfare, and they went into the tent. 8 Then Moses told his father-in-law all that YHVH had done to Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, all the hardship that had beset them on the way, and how YHVH had delivered them. 9 Jethro rejoiced for all the good that YHVH had done to Israel, in delivering them from the Egyptians. 10 Jethro said, "Blessed be YHVH, who has delivered you from the Egyptians and from Pharaoh. 11 Now I know that YHVH is greater than all the gods (kol ha'elohim), because he delivered the people from the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them."

You get all that from a “plain” reading of the text? Without any (unconscious) preconceptions? Without any “midrashic” effort?

We all bring our torah to the Torah, whether we realize it or not...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Except that he gives clear hints that he [b]does know the timing (at least vaguely) a few verses earlier (v.30).

In this case, the simplest translation would have been "see" or "perceive" (eido).[/b]

No, he doesn't.

Matthew 24: 30: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where are these "clear hints" that override the SPECIFIC statement made a few verses later?

Reading the Chapter and Chapter 25 "in context" it is a clear statement that Man does not know when Judgment Day will come and thus the faithful better shape up pronto. This is most effectively communicated in the "foolish bridesmaids" parable. So, Jesus is saying he doesn't know either when Judgment Day is coming though he does know what will happen on that day.

Originally posted by vistesd
Note: With reference to Whodey’s comment about capitalization, there are no capitals or lower-case letters in Hebrew.

Yes, but here the words about God being described again.

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Here we see one God supreme above all and thus should be capitalized in the English language as being such. When Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpant, the serpant said something very interesting. He said if you eat of the fruit you will know good from evil and you will be as "gods". It is my interpretation that once they partook of the fruit, they became gods unto themselves in that they chose to answer only to themselves and not to the God that was over them who told them not to partake of the fruit. The fact that they partook of the fruit made them gods unto themselves only in that context but did not change the fact that God continued to reign over them despite ther unwillingness to yeild to him. In other words, they did not transform into a being with "god-like" poweres, rather, they denied the Lordship of God and thus became gods unto themselves.

Originally posted by whodey
Yes, but here the words about God being described again.

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Here we see one God supreme above all and thus should be capitalized in the English language as being such. When Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpant, the serpant said something very interesting. He ...[text shortened]... ike" poweres, rather, they denied the Lordship of God and thus became gods unto themselves.

Actually, the Greek NT manuscripts are all written in either all-caps or all lower-case, as well.

But, sorry, I think I misunderstood your original point. I use the standard convention as well (notice that I never capitalize Hebrew words, except for YHVH, and that is for emphasis).

With that said, the capital letters in English often also represent the theological predilections of the translators—and the effort to make those predilections clear. For example, if one decides (on theological grounds) that elohim in Gen. 1:1 is the one God, then “God” becomes capitalized. If one decides that it is plural, then one would write simply gods. That decision is not linguistic: it is theological.

Again, sorry for misunderstanding/misrepresenting your point (as I look back at it, I should have known better).

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yet, somehow you believe in the Trinity. Weird.

The OT says OT monster God is the biggest baddest God, true enough. It also accepts the existence of other, lesser gods. In that, it is consistent with the Mormon belief system that there are "gods" below God. That is all I am saying.

There is no doubt that there are other gods mentioned in the bible, however, one should distinguish who is the God above all else. To elevate oneself to the God of all else would be blasphemous and was the excuse the gospels reveal that the Jewish leaders used to kill Christ.

Matthew 26:63 "But Jesus held his peace, and the high priest answered and said to him, I adjure you by the living God, you tell us whether you you be the Christ, the Son of God. Jewsus said to him, You have said; nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. THen the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy. What think you: THey answered adn said, He is guilty of death.

THerefore I ask you. If Chrsit were just the average "Joe" god as others mentioned in the Bible, where is the blashpemy? Being trained in the Torah they knew exactly what he communicating to them. He was making himself equal to God.

Originally posted by whodey
There is no doubt that there are other gods mentioned in the bible, however, one should distinguish who is the God above all else. To elevate oneself to the God of all else would be blasphemous and was the excuse the gospels reveal that the Jewish leaders used to kill Christ.

Matthew 26:63 "But Jesus held his peace, and the high priest answered and said t ...[text shortened]... e Torah they knew exactly what he communicating to them. He was making himself equal to God.

Oh, the irony:

whodey: They have further said that we can also become gods ourself thus elevating man to that of God. It is not only heretical in comparison to scripture, it is also blasphemous to elevate sinful mortal man to that of God unless he is God as was Christ.

Do you now admit that your claim that Mormons were saying that mortal men could become equal to God is false? That's where the whole discussion started.

Jesus doesn't seem to admit anything, BTW.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yet, somehow you believe in the Trinity. Weird.

The OT says OT monster God is the biggest baddest God, true enough. It also accepts the existence of other, lesser gods. In that, it is consistent with the Mormon belief system that there are "gods" below God. That is all I am saying.

Here is the best definition about the Trinity I can find.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

Notice that the Word was God. Now read further to John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.) full of grace and truth."

You also are a triune being. You are body, soul, and spirit. Do you not talk to yourslef? Do you always know what is happening with your body? No, you don't always. Does your body always know what is going on in your mind? No. not always. Yet you are one person.

Originally posted by whodey
Here is the best definition about the Trinity I can find.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

Notice that the Word was God. Now read further to John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only beg ...[text shortened]... r body always know what is going on in your mind? No. not always. Yet you are one person.

However, I am not omniscient; if I was, I'd know everything, wouldn't I? The Bible claims God is omniscient. But Jesus didn't know something according to the passage I provided. I'd be curious to hear your explanation for that.

Originally posted by whodey
There is no doubt that there are other gods mentioned in the bible, however, one should distinguish who is the God above all else. To elevate oneself to the God of all else would be blasphemous and was the excuse the gospels reveal that the Jewish leaders used to kill Christ.

Matthew 26:63 "But Jesus held his peace, and the high priest answered and said t ...[text shortened]... e Torah they knew exactly what he communicating to them. He was making himself equal to God.

Where did I mention blasphemy? But, you are right to this extent: If Jesus was claiming the he was God, then, to a strict monotheist, as were the Sadducees, that would be considered blasphemy.

BTW, I want to caution you on some dangerously sloppy language: (1) the Jewish leaders did not kill Jesus; they turned him over to the Romans to do it. (2) The Sadducees were not “the Jewish leaders;” they were the temple leaders (they and the Pharisees, for instance, did not get along). (3) Most of the 1 million or so Jews in Galilee and Judea,* and the 6 or so million Jews in the diaspora, probably never heard of Jesus during his life, let alone making up part of the crowd, incited by the Sadducees, in Pilate’s courtyard (which was probably not the size of a basketball stadium).

* Sometimes, according to textual scholars, “Jews” in the gospels just refers to those who inhabited Judea, as opposed to Galilee.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Oh, the irony:

whodey: They have further said that we can also become gods ourself thus elevating man to that of God. It is not only heretical in comparison to scripture, it is also blasphemous to elevate sinful mortal man to that of God unless he is God as was Christ.

Do you now admit that your claim that Mormons were saying th ...[text shortened]... 's where the whole discussion started.

Jesus doesn't seem to admit anything, BTW.

You still don't get it do you. In my example of the serpant telling Adam and Eve that they shall be as gods, we see that they became gods unto themselves. They became gods unto themsleves only in the sense that they relinquished the Lordship of their God over their lives and decided to do their own thing. This appears to be what Mormons are celebrating. As a Christian we are to reestablish the Lordship of God in our lives as mentioned in Romans 10:9. "That if you will confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and will believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Notice the believer confessing Jesus as Lord in their lives. This is why their teaching is so corrosive in my view.

Originally posted by whodey
You still don't get it do you. In my example of the serpant telling Adam and Eve that they shall be as gods, we see that they became gods unto themselves. They became gods unto themsleves only in the sense that they relinquished the Lordship of their God over their lives and decided to do their own thing. This appears to be what Mormons are celebrating. A ...[text shortened]... fessing Jesus as Lord in their lives. This is why their teaching is so corrosive in my view.

Whether it's "corrosive" in your view, ain't relevant. They are still Christians whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by whodey
There is no doubt that there are other gods mentioned in the bible, however, one should distinguish who is the God above all else. To elevate oneself to the God of all else would be blasphemous and was the excuse the gospels reveal that the Jewish leaders used to kill Christ.

Matthew 26:63 "But Jesus held his peace, and the high priest answered and said t e Torah they knew exactly what he communicating to them. He was making himself equal to God.

Missed your edit—

Being trained in Torah means no such thing. Not all Jews were apocalyptically oriented (as were, say, the Essenes). The phrase “son of man” occurs 108 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, and with the possible exception of Daniel 7:13 (and there the definite article does not occur in the Hebrew), it refers to human beings. “Son of man” was a common Semitic euphemism for a person, even sometimes used in the first person.

“Son of God” is used only once in the HS, in Daniel 3:25, where it says “like” (that is, “having the appearance of” ).

So, Jesus’ claim, based on these phrases, would not be evident to someone familiar with Torah/Tanach.

EDIT: The NT writers did their own midrash on passages from the Torah and the Prophets; for which I make no criticism.

EDIT 2: Sorry, none of this really has to do with the thread topic...