it's a gift.....

Originally posted by knightmeister
I know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one. ----think of One-----

Let me ask you this. From what I have said what conditions has God s ...[text shortened]... be made . Why did God offer the free gift? I don't know. Maybe because he loves us?

If the offer of salvation were truly unconditional, then the only question that would need to be answered would be, "Do you want salvation?" If the person answered, "Yes", then salvation would be granted. I don't get the impression that that's what you have in mind. There are additional conditions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
...which is why it's not really 'free'. God is both the giver of the 'gift' and the executor of the punishment if the 'gift' is refused -----swiss------

Wrong again. Refusing the gift is it's own punishment. If I offer you a drink and you refuse it , who is executing your resulting thirst? Me or You? God doesn't punish you "because" you refuse the ...[text shortened]... self. If you refuse to spend eternity with God then you will spend it somewhere else.

What nonsense.

According to your own theology, God originally gave the first humans immortality in paradise. THEN he got mad at them for disobeying him and cursed them i.e. punished them. Maybe you should actually read some Scripture.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
"How about a different 'free gift of salvation'. Satan has earned your salvation. You need only have faith in Satan and humbly accept your free gift. Are you willing to accept this generous offer?"

---THINK OF ONE------------

Why are you so against the unconditional lov fer me salvation , he doesn't have the power and he doesn't love me as far as I know.

Let me see if I can explain.

When I read the words of Jesus, they ring true. When I look at much of what Christianity has become I no longer see the words of Jesus. They have been distorted out of recognition.

I don't think that it's about "earning" righteousness.
I don't think it's about "acting" righteous.

I have to believe that it's about "being" righteous. From what I can tell, a transformation has to occur. A transformation from being slaves to the desires of the self to living a life of love, compassion, justice, etc. I believe that this is what Jesus is telling us. Listen to His voice and follow Him instead of remaining a slave to one's own voice, i.e. desires of the self.

John 12:25-26
He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Do you believe this without exception (Rom. 5:15).

God refuses only those who refuse His free gift.[/b]

I feel like what you posted doesn't logically address what you quoted from my post.

I'm not claiming "that some people are worthy to be saved - because of their deeds."

I'm not claiming that anybody is "worthy of eternal life." In fact, I don't know that the idea of "eternal life" is important to me. It certainly doesn't at all motivate me. It's not about what I get.

Read my replies to Knightmeister. Hopefully that'll help you understand what I'm saying.

Originally posted by no1marauder
What nonsense.

According to your own theology, God originally gave the first humans immortality in paradise. THEN he got mad at them for disobeying him and cursed them i.e. punished them. Maybe you should actually read some Scripture.

Genesis is a myth. I do not base my theology on poetry. I , incidentally do not believe in original sin theology.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I feel like what you posted doesn't logically address what you quoted from my post.

I'm not claiming "that some people are worthy to be saved - because of their deeds."

I'm not claiming that anybody is "worthy of eternal life." In fact, I don't know that the idea of "eternal life" is important to me. It certainly doesn't at all motivate me y replies to Knightmeister. Hopefully that'll help you understand what I'm saying.

Do you believe that God loves you and that Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, whom God sent specifically for you, died on the cross in your place in order to atone for your sins and eternally reconcile you to the Father, and that on the third day He rose from the dead? Do you believe this? Because this is the only gospel of Christ.

Of course God has certain conditions for those who would walk through the gates of heaven, and it is Jesus Christ alone who fulfills them.

In comparison to what Christ accomplished on the cross, trust in the gospel is hardly a condition which could nullify the distinction "unconditional" as it pertains to the love of God on display towards all sinners in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You are splitting hairs.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Do you believe that God loves you and that Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, whom God sent specifically for you, died on the cross in your place in order to atone for your sins and eternally reconcile you to the Father, and that on the third day He rose from the dead? Do you believe this? Because this is the only gospel of Christ.

Of course God isplay towards all sinners in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You are splitting hairs.

I can't even believe you wrote this. Your posts have become increasingly incoherent. The God of Jesus is the God of Truth. Does that mean nothing to you? Look at what you've written. It shows someone with a seriously distorted point of view. Look at the lengths you're willing to go to attempt to prove YOURSELF right. Get back on the path little lamb. Truth is bigger than even you.

"Of course God has certain conditions for those who would walk through the gates of heaven...trust in the gospel is hardly a condition which could nullify the distinction 'unconditional'..."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I can't even believe you wrote this. Your posts have become increasingly incoherent. The God of Jesus is the God of Truth. Does that mean nothing to you? Look at what you've written. It shows someone with a seriously distorted point of view. Look at the lengths you're willing to go to attempt to prove YOURSELF right. Get back on the path little lamb. Trut gospel is hardly a condition which could nullify the distinction 'unconditional'..."[/i]

You're splitting hairs. And you've misread my post. The grace poured out in the blood of Christ on the cross is for all people, regardless of merit. In this sense, it is unconditional, in that nobody needs to be good enough to receive it. Receiving God's free gift is conditional, as you point out, in that we must first trust in the gospel of Christ. But does this condition of trust erase the fact that nobody needs to be good enough to receive God's grace in the first place?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You're splitting hairs. And you've misread my post. The grace poured out in the blood of Christ on the cross is for all people, regardless of merit. In this sense, it is unconditional, in that nobody needs to be good enough to receive it. Receiving God's free gift is conditional, as you point out, in that we must first trust in the gospel of Christ. ...[text shortened]... rase the fact that nobody needs to be good enough to receive God's grace in the first place?

Get back on the path little lamb. Truth is bigger than even you.

Would it kill you to even consider that you've made a mistake? Instead you try all manner of prevarication. You act as a child.

The sad thing is that Jesus is so utterly righteous, but people will never come to know Him because of the likes of you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Get back on the path little lamb. Truth is bigger than even you.

Would it kill you to even consider that you've made a mistake? Instead you try all manner of prevarication. You act as a child.

The sad thing is that Jesus is so utterly righteous, but people will never come to know Him because of the likes of you.

Why don't you stop the baseless insults and answer the question which I posed to you.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Why don't you stop the baseless insults and answer the question which I posed to you.

Your question is immaterial to the matter at hand. The fact remains that it's conditional. I don't understand why you keep trying to insist that it isn't. Does this insistence come from the voice of the Holy Spirit or your own voice? Are they the words of the Holy Spirt or your own words?

"In comparison to what Christ accomplished on the cross, trust in the gospel is hardly a condition which could nullify the distinction "unconditional" as it pertains to the love of God on display towards all sinners in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross."

The words of the Holy Spirit or your words?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your question is immaterial to the matter at hand. The fact remains that it's conditional. I don't understand why you keep trying to insist that it isn't. Does this insistence come from the voice of the Holy Spirit or your own voice? Are they the words of the Holy Spirt or your own words?

"In comparison to what Christ accomplished on the cross, tru ...[text shortened]... the sacrifice of Christ on the cross."

The words of the Holy Spirit or your words?

Stop dodging the question, please.

The grace poured out in the blood of Christ on the cross is for all people, regardless of merit. In this sense, God's grace is unconditional, in that nobody needs to be good enough to receive it. Right? You've already agreed with me on this point ("I'm not claiming "that some people are worthy to be saved - because of their deeds."' - ThinkOfOne).

However, receiving God's free gift is conditional in that we must first trust in the gospel of Christ in order to receive it. But does the condition of having to trust the Gospel erase the fact that nobody needs to be "good enough" to receive the free gift of grace?

Stop the ad hominem attacks and start actually addressing the issue at hand. Please answer the question.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Stop dodging the question, please.

The grace poured out in the blood of Christ on the cross is for all people, regardless of merit. In this sense, God's grace is unconditional, in that nobody needs to be good enough to receive it. Right? You've already agreed with me on this point ("I'm not claiming "that some people are worthy to be saved - attacks and start actually addressing the issue at hand. Please answer the question.

You know they're your words. They are words born of the ego and not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit loves Truth. Your words are not.

Did it ever occur to you that many view Christianity as illogical and Christians as prevaricators and hypocrites for a reason? You're not helping to dispel these views.

Try loving God instead of loving the idea that God loves you.

Try loving the teachings of Jesus instead of loving the idea that Jesus loves you.

It's not about what YOU get.

You have eyes but you cannot see.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You know they're your words. They are words born of the ego and not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit loves Truth. Your words are not.

Did it ever occur to you that many view Christianity as illogical and Christians as prevaricators and hypocrites for a reason? You're not helping to dispel these views.

Try loving God instead of loving the idea that ...[text shortened]... gs of Jesus instead of loving the idea that Jesus loves you.

It's not about what YOU get.

You know they're your words. They are words born of the ego and not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit loves Truth. Your words are not.

Is this how you circumvent all of the questions people ask you?

Did it ever occur to you that many view Christianity as illogical and Christians as prevaricators and hypocrites for a reason? You're not helping to dispel these views.

Now you are accusing me of being a liar (a prevaricator). For what reason exactly?

Try loving God instead of loving the idea that God loves you.

Is this the Holy Spirit talking, ThinkOfOne, or is it you?

"We love him, because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Try loving the teachings of Jesus instead of loving the idea that Jesus loves you.

"We love him, because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

It's not about what YOU get.

Do you think I have anything to offer the Lord? No, I don't. If the Lord doesn't give me His love and pour out His Spirit into my heart, then I'd have nothing to give Him. God only expects from us what He gives to us. So, yes, it's very much about what we get.

Originally posted by knightmeister
...which is why it's not really 'free'. God is both the giver of the 'gift' and the executor of the punishment if the 'gift' is refused -----swiss------

Wrong again. Refusing the gift is it's own punishment. If I offer you a drink and you refuse it , who is executing your resulting thirst? Me or You? God doesn't punish you "because" you refuse the ...[text shortened]... self. If you refuse to spend eternity with God then you will spend it somewhere else.

Luke 12:4-5

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

This reveals the flaw of your 'thirst' analogy. Going to hell isn't a matter of just sitting back and waiting passively for it to happen. Rather, someone [God] throws you into hell. It is not a place we can reach on our own. And it is more than just being away from God - it is something we are told to fear.

In other parables, Jesus describes it as 'the outer darkness' where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' - or 'depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'. This is something far worse than a mere loss of happiness - it is an active, constant, never-ending infliction of misery.

One wonders why Jesus is so lauded on this forum, by both believer and skeptic alike, when he has to resort to such cheap mind-control tricks to scare people into believing.