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Originally posted by Shallow BlueNo, and why do we keep having to debunk this?
No, agnosticism is a null position. Atheism is an intentional minus position.
Theism and atheism are positions with respect to the question of belief in god/s.
Theism is the belief that one or more gods exist.
Atheism is the negation of theism, or the lack of belief that any gods exist.
This position includes inside it the position of believing in the lack of gods,
typically referred to as strong atheism, as opposed to the more general and broad
weak atheism of simply lacking in belief.
Thus the terms theism and atheism are exclusive and exhaustive, as are theist
and atheist.
There is no middle ground between them, you are one or the other.
Gnosticism and agnosticism are positions with respect to a different question.
The question of whether you can or do know if a god exists [when using
them in a religious context].
Gnosticism is the position of claiming to know if a god or gods do or don't exist.
Agnosticism is the position of claiming not to know if a god or gods do or don't exist
or sometimes more strongly that it cannot be known if a god or gods do or don't exist.
Thus you can be a gnostic theist, an agnostic theist, an agnostic atheist, and a gnostic atheist.
And agnostic atheist can be further broken down into agnostic weak atheist, and agnostic strong atheist.
Typically the only people to actually call themselves 'agnostics' are people who do not have a belief
that a god or gods exist and thus they are also atheists.
The neutral or null position with respect to any claim is to lack a belief in it's truth or falsehood
until sufficient justification/evidence is given either way.
This null position on the question of god or gods is to lack a belief that god's exist.
Which is agnostic weak atheism.
Or just plain simple atheism.
Atheism IS the default position with respect to the question of whether gods exist.
Agnosticism is ALSO the default position as long as you mean the position of claiming not to know,
as opposed to the stronger position of claiming that it cannot be known*** AND you're an agnostic atheist
and not an agnostic theist.
***Because the second contains a positive claim that requires justification. [and is to my mind unjustified,
but that's a whole other topic]
EDIT: in italics.
Originally posted by Shallow BlueNo. Atheism is a lack of belief. It is doing/thinking nothing. it is the default position - it is the position of the new-born child. It is a lack of belief in a deity.
No, agnosticism is a null position. Atheism is an intentional minus position.
To be an agnostic one must consider deities. It involves an action.
Originally posted by OdBodWhat crap!
It requires courage to be an Atheist. To accept that you will end, runs contrary to all your self preservation and survival instincts. To have to accept that you will not see your loved ones again is heartbreaking. Religious people are able to side step these hard truths, and that makes religion an easier option. I would also extend this thinking to martyrdom, ...[text shortened]... r his belief than anybody. How does this compare to a simple man or woman dying to save another?
You don't have a choice!
You are going to end in this life if you like it or not, believing in what comes
next does not change squat with respect to you leaving this life that is
going to happen!
Where courage comes in where those beliefs matter in the here and now!
Will you not act out in hate when everyone around you calls on you too
or go with the crowd when it says walk this way instead of that?
Where courage is when you believe the hard truth is love your enemy, care
for those that abuse you, where those beliefs about what come next does
indeed matter more than your desires for revenge. When you have to make
your natural desire take a back seat due to what you think is real and will
come next.
Atheist have nothing to guide themselves except what they want at the
moment they bind themselves to nothing except what they claim to at the
moment. There isn't anything in charge of them except that which they
desire it to be, at the moment!
People have it in themselves to do good, it isn't always done. When we see
it we are glad, so saving another is a good thing. living for others is better.
Originally posted by KellyJayI am sorry KellyJay, but I found your opening comments a little confusing in relation to the OP. That said, you seem to think that Atheists have nothing to guide them, I disagree. We all live in the same world and share limited resources, it is in everybody's interest to develop a society which is fair and sustainable. Religion divides people , creates extremists with fixed uncompromising views capable of atrocities , validated by perceived divine authority . I would also suggest that as an Atheist I believe this is the only life we have, and that this makes all life rare and precious, no second chances.
What crap!
You don't have a choice!
You are going to end in this life if you like it or not, believing in what comes
next does not change squat with respect to you leaving this life that is
going to happen!
Where courage comes in where those beliefs matter in the here and now!
Will you not act out in hate when everyone around you calls on you too
o ...[text shortened]... ne. When we see
it we are glad, so saving another is a good thing. living for others is better.
Originally posted by OdBodI believe Atheist are their own guildes, they pick and choose, they don't like
I am sorry KellyJay, but I found your opening comments a little confusing in relation to the OP. That said, you seem to think that Atheists have nothing to guide them, I disagree. We all live in the same world and share limited resources, it is in everybody's interest to develop a society which is fair and sustainable. Religion divides people , creates extremi ...[text shortened]... his is the only life we have, and that this makes all life rare and precious, no second chances.
where they think they are going they can change. They are beholding to
nothing, not sure why anyone would think that takes courage.
I do think you mean well, I do believe your heart wants to do the right
thing with statements like "lets be fair", but you have no way to hold any
to those ideals, you are just a voice in the wind like every other human.
If there is no god, if there isn't any higher power than we are ourselves
than those that join forces will force the weaker groups to comply. It is
the way its always been, which would mean that things like religion are
just another tool towards that end.
If there is a higher power than man, that man is beholden to! Well all of
our actions will be up to that power not ourselves to judge as that power
or God decides. At least that is the way I see it.
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16 Feb 15
2 edits
Originally posted by OdBodA certain kind of theism and a certain kind of atheism sit in opposition to one another. At a minimum they belittle each other, saying the other is of no value, and a form of denial. Beyond this, they each allow, justify or even demand cruelty toward the other, although it requires organization to put pogroms in place; using religious or irreligious, e.g. communist hierarchy to pull it off. We see that happening all over the world.
It requires courage to be an Atheist. To accept that you will end, runs contrary to all your self preservation and survival instincts. To have to accept that you will not see your loved ones again is heartbreaking. Religious people are able to side step these hard truths, and that makes religion an easier option. I would also extend this thinking to martyrdom, ...[text shortened]... r his belief than anybody. How does this compare to a simple man or woman dying to save another?
We see belittlement on this forum. Some of us participate in it. Over time, some of us have moved off our starting point in one direction or the other, in our treatment of each other.
Seeing no afterlife ahead while drawing closer to the day of supposed reckoning makes me want to be gentle, even to those who aren't gentle. Some of us have been damaged. Maybe all of us. I must remember that.
There is another kind of theism, and another kind of atheism, available, where things are gentler. I think that typically they are found individually, not by joining a group, although inspiring role models exist. Once found, like-minded others may be found.
I ramble. Peace be on you.
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Originally posted by OdBod
[
It requires courage to be an Atheist. To accept that you will end, runs contrary to all your self preservation and survival instincts. To have to accept that you will not see your loved ones again is heartbreaking. Religious people are able to side step these hard truths,
Name two of your top most hard truths that I as a Christian "side step."
Don't skip the top two or three to mention them latter. Give me your two top examples - "hard truths" that I as a believer in Jesus Christ "side step."
Thanks
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Originally posted by sonshipWhat truths are most hard to take is going to depend on the individual.It requires courage to be an Atheist. To accept that you will end, runs contrary to all your self preservation and survival instincts. To have to accept that you will not see your loved ones again is heartbreaking. Religious people are able to side step these hard truths,
Name two of your top most hard truths that I as a Christian "side ...[text shortened]... ur two top examples - "hard truths" that I as a believer in Jesus Christ "side step."
Thanks
However one generally considered hard to accept is this...
There is no life after death, we do not continue after death and neither do
the people we love. We wont see them again after we die, they haven't gone
to a better place. After life there is nothing, a simple cessation of existence.
No reward, no punishment, no existence.
Almost all religions [if not all] include some kind of afterlife belief.
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by sonshipSorry sonship, I didn't understand your second paragraph in the context of your complete post, that said , I would stand by my OP.It requires courage to be an Atheist. To accept that you will end, runs contrary to all your self preservation and survival instincts. To have to accept that you will not see your loved ones again is heartbreaking. Religious people are able to side step these hard truths,
Name two of your top most hard truths that I as a Christian "side ...[text shortened]... ur two top examples - "hard truths" that I as a believer in Jesus Christ "side step."
Thanks