Originally posted by sonhouse
Actually, the first surgical instruments were invented in ancient Rome, even to the extent of doing cataract surgery with tiny scalpels. Europe was actually recovering pretty well till around the year 1000 when the little ice age happened that pretty much destroyed agriculture which lead directly to the plague and all the deaths that followed. The so-called ...[text shortened]... d to its former self and farming became productive again and therefore civilization recovered.

And yet people were killed for suggesting the truth. Meanwhile, half a world away, Muslims were making scientific, mathematical, architectural, artistic, medical, and maritime advancements like no other society.

Originally posted by scherzo
And yet people were killed for suggesting the truth. Meanwhile, half a world away, Muslims were making scientific, mathematical, architectural, artistic, medical, and maritime advancements like no other society.

Now, 500 years later ..... they are the laughing stock of the world ....😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
Now, 500 years later ..... they are the laughing stock of the world ....😀

Sadly and regrettably.

Originally posted by scherzo
Sadly and regrettably.

Yes ... but dont sit there and wallow in selfpity.

Understand why it happened and what you/muslims can do about it and spread the word. Fix the problem.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Yes ... but dont sit there and wallow in selfpity.

Understand why it happened and what you/muslims can do about it and spread the word. Fix the problem.

You first, as the false image concerning Islam in the world is perpetrated by people like you.

Originally posted by scherzo
You first, as the false image concerning Islam in the world is perpetrated by people like you.

I guess I will have to lump you in the basket of people who like to blame others for their failings. Islam has failed. Im sure many muslims know why. You are just not one of them.

Originally posted by scherzo
And yet people were killed for suggesting the truth. Meanwhile, half a world away, Muslims were making scientific, mathematical, architectural, artistic, medical, and maritime advancements like no other society.

And the implication is the religion is responsible?
That advancement didn't last too long did it.
It seems to me the baton passes between cultures about science.
It was just shown 2100 years ago the Antikytheran mechanism was the most advanced mechanical calculator in it's time and not even close to duplicated for over a thousand years, and they managed quite nicely without Christ or Mohammed or Jehovah or Allah.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I guess I will have to lump you in the basket of people who like to blame others for their failings. Islam has failed. Im sure many muslims know why. You are just not one of them.

I'm not Muslim. Islam has not failed. Your comments show that it is Christianity that has failed.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And the implication is the religion is responsible?
That advancement didn't last too long did it.
It seems to me the baton passes between cultures about science.
It was just shown 2100 years ago the Antikytheran mechanism was the most advanced mechanical calculator in it's time and not even close to duplicated for over a thousand years, and they managed quite nicely without Christ or Mohammed or Jehovah or Allah.

They were Muslim philosophers, etc.

Originally posted by scherzo
They were Muslim philosophers, etc.

Of course. But that doesn't mean Islam was an island of reason. The main thing that happened was the little ice age that almost destroyed European culture, killing about half the population with plague and starvation. When you are starving, you don't really want to hear about Plato's dialogs, eh.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Of course. But that doesn't mean Islam was an island of reason. The main thing that happened was the little ice age that almost destroyed European culture, killing about half the population with plague and starvation. When you are starving, you don't really want to hear about Plato's dialogs, eh.

Islam, compared to Christianity at the time, was certainly an island of reason.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And the implication is the religion is responsible?
That advancement didn't last too long did it.
It seems to me the baton passes between cultures about science.
It was just shown 2100 years ago the Antikytheran mechanism was the most advanced mechanical calculator in it's time and not even close to duplicated for over a thousand years, and they managed quite nicely without Christ or Mohammed or Jehovah or Allah.

But everyone has this image that Muslims are backward people who have no function in the Western world. Most people who instigate this vision have never been to the Middle East or South Asia, or even seen a Muslim, such as Rajk. That image is wrong. Muslims are different than Christians, true, and some of them are evil, true. But more Christians are evil and backward than Muslims. Look at the 1994 Oklahoma bombing. Everyone thought it was a Muslim terrorist because it was the quick-and-easy scapegoat, till they realized it was a white Christian teenager.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And the implication is the religion is responsible?
That advancement didn't last too long did it.
It seems to me the baton passes between cultures about science.
It was just shown 2100 years ago the Antikytheran mechanism was the most advanced mechanical calculator in it's time and not even close to duplicated for over a thousand years, and they managed quite nicely without Christ or Mohammed or Jehovah or Allah.

To be fair, don't compare between Muslims today and before, compare Muslims before Islam and After Islam.

To really see the effect of a religion look how did affect its followers.

Muslims before Islam were scattered tribes, fighting its other, pillaging each other. There was no a single organization that combine them, they were not clean. Adultery was a common practice, and of course worshiping stones (idols). There was no place of science, or anything related to the achievement you are talking about, and there was no sign for that achievement. No within 20 years from the beginning of Islam, all these trips were united in a well organized state, where every member knows his duties and rights. This small state was the foundation of the great achievement in the following centuries. Within two centuries this nation expanded from Spain in the west to India on the east. Now look how long did take Christians to reach the same level, I think more than 15 centuries, and that was not because of Christianity, on the contrary, that happened, when Christians separated the Church from the state.

Muslims are now seams to be backwarded not because they are following Islam, on the contrary, it is because they don't really follow Islam, and if they did sure they would live a better life.

There is a direct relation between sticking to Islam, and the advancement of Muslims. The more Muslims stick to Islam , the more they will be advanced. Muslims in the early Centuries when Islam was strong, were very religious and Islam led them to that achievement, while today the case is very depressing.

Originally posted by ahosyney
To be fair, don't compare between Muslims today and before, compare Muslims before Islam and After Islam.

To really see the effect of a religion look how did affect its followers.

Muslims before Islam were scattered tribes, fighting its other, pillaging each other. There was no a single organization that combine them, they were not clean. Adultery was ...[text shortened]... ery religious and Islam led them to that achievement, while today the case is very depressing.

Well, we can't deny that some Muslims are doing horrible things in the name of their religion. But these people are so few that it's hard to picture them easily like the West does.

Originally posted by scherzo
Well, we can't deny that some Muslims are doing horrible things in the name of their religion. But these people are so few that it's hard to picture them easily like the West does.

I don't deny that, what I deny is that their religion is really ask them to do so!